This appeared pretty far down in the news stories. Not sure if many caught it (I was half asleep and just caught part of it). Apparently during a 60 lap compact series race part of Speedweeks at Daytona (IDash/IPower Series - no longer sanctioned by Nascar), a corner worker (Roy H. Weaver III) was struck by a driver catching up under yellow at around 100 mph and died immediately. I read that there was possibly another corner worker struck but could find no details. Very sad to hear/read anytime anyone is injured in racing but perhaps moreso when its the men and women that work the corners and man the fire bottles. Some details here (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200....ap/index.html) and I dearly hope this does NOT become a means for bashing either the driver (parapalegic who drives by hand controls) or the slain worker. I know for myself that coming around the banking at LMS, you couldn't see more than 10 or 15 degrees in front of you at speed (and we at least are told to catch up under yellow not go out and putt around).

Condolences to all involved.

 

I read/saw this as well, very sad indeed.

I don't blame the worker or the driver, I do, however, blame the rules. Drivers are encouraged to catch up to the pack under yellow, there are no yellow flag speed limits on the track, they pit in, do what they need, and catch back up to the pack. Limit everyone to pit speeds on or off the track and these safety fiasco's wouldn't occur (as frequently) under a yellow flag situation.

Scott

 

I agree with you Scott. I think the disadvantage of the flashing lights is there is no "voracity" (sp?) of a fast whipping yellow flag. I have seen CWs out on track before prior to an incident (after being under yellow for a lap or two) signalling to the drivers to "slow the **** down" prior to an incident in a hard to see area (this happened in the Esses at RA last March where a car hit and rolled onto a car already stuck against the wall where workers were trying to get the car stuck car underway). There was a danger in that but I guess the trade off of being visible for a couple hundred feet vs. no visibility was a risk they felt worth taking. Maybe there is no absolute solution to this - it can happen anywhere unfortunately. Perhaps in the future, workers being anywhere on the track would constitute an immediate red flag and everyone come to pit speed where ever they are.

I don't offer a solution, its just a very sad case that you wish never occurred for all parties involved.

 

Yes, made the News and Fishwrap's sports page

I know the roundy-round rule of racing back to the caution, but should that be the case with workers out on the track? I would think the workers would wait until all cars are under control of the pace car before getting onto the track surface.

What's the rule in typical road racing venues? I've only worked at HPDE's, where we don't go on the track until the course is clear.


[edit] http://newsobserver.com/24hour....html [/edit]

 

I'm going by memory, which is always dangerous, but didn't this happen a year or 2 ago at an ARCA race at Lowes.
Same situation, same result IIRC.

Its horrible.
The only solution I can think of is not husting back up to the pack under yellow. This is currently accepted by pretty much everyone, but it is obviously dangerous. IMO its better to impose a yellow flag speed limit for the entire course and take an extra lap under yellow waiting for the field to bunch up.

 

this is why in NASCAR sanctioned events (for the past 8+ mos.) that racing back to the caution is not allowed anymore.

Obviously, the old ARCA (aka: sport compact series) needs to look into this very same policy.

 

I think that was a bit different if you are talking about fall 2002 (it was pretty much right after HC had their races at LMS the first year). That IIRC was a driver hitting a stopped car where the stopped car had released his harnesses. In that situation, there had been some time after the yellow lights came on but I think it was still on the same lap as the incident. It did lead to mandatory spotters for all practice and qualifying sessions in ARCA events I believe (this incident happened with the driver's spotter on the rig not up in the spotters stands).

The reason for throwing a course yellow is to have all cars catch up so the CW have the room to do their work from my understanding. Turning a 2.5 mile track into a track mostly without cars circling. If they threw a mandatory speed, you'd still have cars strewn across the full length of the track which would impede emergency workers IMO. It might sound silly but considering the money that big superspeedways have and the technology partnerships they have, I think installing jumbo-trons at each corner entry might be a good solution. You don't want to put a worker at turn entry violently waving a yellow flag (too many bad things can happen), you obviously cannot solely rely on the flashing yellow lights but you can give the driver (only under course yellows) better vision around the banking than they'd have ordinarily. I don't suggest they be on at any other time however and I am sure there are flaws in this suggestion too.

 

This wasn't an incident related to racing back to the yellow. The driver was apparently unable to take the green flag. In the process of fixing his car there was an accident that required a yellow flag. Under this caution at nearly the beginning of the race the driver headed out onto the track to catch up to the pack and at that time hit the worker.

The driver did not spin out and in the process hit the worker, the worker ran out onto the track in front of the oncoming car (to pick up some previoulsy unseen debris) and was hit.

The above is how I see it based on the reports I have read. Surely there will be an official explanation in the future.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phat-S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I dearly hope this does NOT become a means for bashing either the driver (parapalegic who drives by hand controls) or the slain worker. </TD></TR></TABLE>

The article posted by Splat makes both the driver and the corner worker seem like idiots. The average joe responds to statements like "speeding around the track" to be a negative, and statements like "we shouldn't let workers on the track while cars are running" is just as stupid, IMHO.

 

I was watching the live broadcast when they were attending to the driver trapped in his car and circling under yellow. The car involved in the worker's death left the pits and shortly thereafter, the pack stopped on pit lane and the race went on hold.

My take is that neither party was being reckless or stupid - they were each just "doing their job." I've never driven Daytona obviously but my understanding is that, where the incident happened, it's only possible to see a couple hundred yards up the track. In addition, 100mph likely does NOT feel fast there. The worker obviously figured that all of the cars on the track were under the control of the pace car (a fair assumption). The driver figured that there wouldn't be anyone actually on the banking (tragic in hindsight but not unreasonable).

The rule change that could prevent this would be to either close pit out until the track is officially cleared (e.g., "1 to go") or hold cars there until the pack comes around, releasing them straight to the back of the pack.

The lesson here is that there, for the grace of whatever god you speak to, go roadracers, too. I have seen some horrendously close calls and we've lost people, too - Vancouver CART race a decade ago, for example. We don't see so many full-course cautions in club racing but what about when we do? A track like VIR's full course won't have the pack completely under control for a LONG time.

I worry about the assumption that, should I see a local yellow and then pass "the" incident, that it's clear to go racing again. I don't assume anything until I see the ABSENCE of a yellow (the dog that isn't barking) at the next station but I've been jumped by people who are obviously thinking differently. Am I the only one who's seen simultaneous incidents on back-to-back corners?

I've also seen drivers run into the back of cars lined up behind the pace car, both during full-course cautions and at the beginning of a race - when a driver late-started out off of pregrid and was released to catch up with the field. Very similar to this tragedy.

K

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I worry about the assumption that, should I see a local yellow and then pass "the" incident, that it's clear to go racing again. I don't assume anything until I see the ABSENCE of a yellow (the dog that isn't barking) at the next station but I've been jumped by people who are obviously thinking differently. Am I the only one who's seen simultaneous incidents on back-to-back corners?

K</TD></TR></TABLE>

In preparation for the school this weekend Renee and I were just discussing this last night. Her question was precisely what Kirk just mentioned... "But what if there is a 2nd incident?"
Yeah, I've always wondered the same thing.

This is one of those rules that I just can't figure out. With all the super safe stuff we do these days why can't we just change the local yellow rule to you can't start racing until you pass a clear worker station?

 

Hell, at Summit Point SCCA races, people can't even slow down enough to avoid the incident the yellow flag is for.

My understanding was the the yellow flag actually meant yellow until the next worker station. I think if you read the GCR (and the NASA CCR, which is very closely modeled after the SCCA's GCR), you'll see it says that.

Now, whether or not drivers obey that, and whether or not stewards enforce it are two completely separate things.

But with incidents like this occuring, maybe it's something that needs to be changed? I know that, as a driver, I would want the workers to get to me ASAP. I know that, as a worker, I want to get to a driver ASAP, especially in critical situations like fires or crashes. Every second matters. The more drivers who realize that their lives could be in the hands of a corner worker, and that if a corner worker is afraid to go on track for fear of some dumbass who can't understand what a yellow flag means, well, those few seconds could be the difference between racing again in a month and racing again in three months, or possibly never racing again, much less living.

I have no tolerance for drivers who feel compelled to ignore what a yellow flag means, beyond "no passing." The fact that SCCA stewards, at least, can overlook such blatant disregard for the safety of workers and other drivers has made me very leery of corner working of late, at least at Summit Point.

Karen

 

Karen, its until you completely clear the incident OR reach the next manned but unflagged corner station - whichever comes first. I know this was in the CCR in 03, I would assume its similar verbiage in the current CCR and GCR.

Scott, Kirk, flag an incident after the exit of Oak Tree, next corner bucket is the entry of Roller Coaster. Flag an off after T5 at LMS, next corner station is T1. Flag an off on T7 at RA, next bucket, T9. Two ITS cars battling for position when that happens and you end up between them at the onset of these waving yellows would pretty much explain why very quickly.

IMO, everyone should use their best judgement and for the most part we all do w/ little (negative) consequence. I think most guys/gals do use that next cw stand as a reference actually, but in the above types of cases, they use their eyes and best judgement. This (what happened over the weekend) really isn't a function of "racing" under yellow (nor was it in my example from RA above). We are supposed to catch up under course yellows and under a local yellow we are supposed to watch out for something happening/has happened in front of us (and not do any passing until we clear that scene).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've never driven Daytona obviously but my understanding is that, where the incident happened, it's only possible to see a couple hundred yards up the track. In addition, 100mph likely does NOT feel fast there. The worker obviously figured that all of the cars on the track were under the control of the pace car (a fair assumption). The driver figured that there wouldn't be anyone actually on the banking (tragic in hindsight but not unreasonable).
</TD></TR></TABLE>

We are talking about Daytona, like the big oval daytona in Florida, right?

I have never driven it either, but I have been to the track and walked the apron in the banking, as well as played with the 'driving simulator' (full motion cockpit w/ a huge screen on the wall in front of you) they have in the museum.

First of all, the visability around the corner is very very short, that is correct. But thats not what I am wondering about.

The banking is EXTREMELY high. it doesn't look like it on TV, but I would be too scared to walk all the way up it. If you slipped and fell, you would fall all the way (3 stories) down the pavement to the flat portion at the bottom. The guide claimed that the neutral speed for the banking (meaning the speed at which a car does not actually have to turn INTO the banking to stay on it) is 160mph... anything less then 90mph and most cars can not stay on it at all. It amazes me that a piece of debris stayed on the banking without falling off, and also amazes me that the workers are able to scale the bank...

turn one. Remember, thats 3 stories tall...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phat-S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Condolences to all involved.</TD></TR></TABLE>



Very sad, indeed.

 

Actually the 2004 NASA CCR still states that there is absolutely no passing until completely passed the incident OR until the next manned flag station that is not displaying any yellow flags.

Also, I was surprised that they continued the race after a death on track. Would a driver's death be treated the same way?


Modified by racecontrol at 9:04 PM 2/9/2004

 

I hear ya Adam, but you also kind of made my point to a degree.

Same scenario... You exit Oak tree under yellow and pass two cars tangled up in the dirt on the outside just past track out, so you gun it and start racing again (because you're past "the" incident).
You crest the hill at the end of the back straight two wide with another ITA car and an ITS car passing you both on the inside... And there's another two cars tangled up right in the middle of the track as you crest the hill.

None of you would ever assume (understandably) that those cars would be there and the result could be tragic.

Maybe those long areas need an extra worker station (and yes, I know that workers are typically in short supply)?
Again, it just seems to me that with all the other things we do for safety stuff like this could be avoided with a little extra effort. Its incidents like this one at Daytona, where really nobody was doing anything "wrong" but someone loses their life that makes me think that the status quo needs to be rethunked.
JMO.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Maybe those long areas need an extra worker station (and yes, I know that workers are typically in short supply)?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Flag station 12 is just before the crest of the hill on drivers left on the back straight at VIR

 

And flag station 12 is usually manned since there is no line of sight from 11 (Oak Tree) to 14 (top of the roller coaster).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Greyout &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"></TD></TR></TABLE>
Wow that looks like a long drop.

 

It's a tragic thing that happened, and it makes it that much worse when such tragic things happen to good people with good intentions.

If I'm not mistaken, the rule for driving under a yellow flag is no passing allowed. There are no other limitations explicitly stated anywhere. I see potentially big problems that can occur during local yellows, especially when there is a lot on the line (non-amateur level).

One problem is that the rules state no passing in the portion of the track from the corner station displaying the flag until you pass the incident. But who is to say that there is only one incident before the next worker station? It’s up to the driver to make the best judgment.

The second problem, is the most important imo. From what I understand, the rules for going through a local yellow portion of a track can not prevent a driver from going through there at 10/10ths. All it can do is prevent two driver's going side by side at 10/10th - no passing. So under these current rules, how then can such an incident (as described in the original post) be totally prevented? It's easy to say "the driver should go slower when under yellow", but until that is not written on paper, there will always be someone who does not. At certain levels, a 5 second lead is very important and it can all be lost if the leading driver slows his pace down when going through the local yellow, while the trailing driver keeps going at 10/10ths. So how can it be made fair? How can the rules be written using *non-relative* terms to describe the appropriate speed when going through a local yellow? I still can’t see a clear way to do this. Maybe there should be a "yellow speed limit" and each corner worker should have a radar gun and give out penalties if broken? But then if a concrete speed limit is implemented, how will the pack ever bunch up behind the pace car? I’m curious what some thoughts are on how this could be addressed, or even better, how exactly could the "local yellow" rule be re-written?

As far as Daytona goes when we were there, I remember seeing some people cutting off part of their windshield banners if they were too thick in order to see down the track. When going on the banking, you are literally looking up through the top of your windshield in order to see ahead.

 

I don't know what the answer to the "slow down" question is, in terms of motivating change for an entire sanctioning body - I can only speak for myself...

...if the difference between winning and losing a plastic trophy is making up time on me when I slow to make conditions safe for workers, the ***-munch who catches me is welcome to it. I will make the presentation myself, complete with ***-munch public humiliation.

With some luck, those same workers will "struggle" to extract Mr. Munch's car from a gravel trap some day and cost him a finish...

K