Several members have raised an issue here and elsewhere because of an evidently stricter interpretation and enforcement of the NASA CCR with regard to certain hybrid safety systems, namely OEM ITR seats and Autopower ERW four-point rollbars with harness bar and cross brace, as these rules apply to HPDE/HPDS students.

Since it's known that the ITR Expo basically follows the NASA CCR, with their permission, this was a cause for concern among some members.

I spent some time this afternoon talking to people from NASA and SCCA, including instructors and racers, safety inspectors, organisers and former race directors. We identified problems that can be introduced by using an aftermarket rollbar system in conjunction with OEM reclinable seats.

In all honesty, there is an issue that cannot be discounted, regarding the remote possibility of the driver submarining under the harness bar in some kinds of accidents, for example:

In the event of a cataclysmic multiple impact incident, there is a possibility that the seat rail mountings <u>and</u> the seat squab latch could all fail.

There is then the possibility that the seat back would then be forced forward by the harness bar as the seat cusion is forced backward, and this might force the occupant's helmeted head forward and into the intrusion zone of one of the impacts, or the occupant could be injured by being forced further back under the harness bar.

If this happens, then there is a chance that the occupant will suffer greater injury than if the rollover protection were not present.

For this reason, organisations like NASA are going to begin to suggest an all or nothing approach regarding safety systems.

The way Jim Politi explains it, we know that OEM belts, OEM seats and the car's construction are designed to work in concert with each other to prevent serious injury.

We know that the all-out approach to further safety, namely five point belts, rollover protection and stiff-backed FIA seats, when all used together, act to substantially improve the likelihood of surviving and walking away from a horrible accident.

However, when people mix and choose their safety items, the test database drops to almost nothing, and much more is left to chance and to the owner's skill in picking his safety items with common sense.

We also have questions that are difficult to answer: Are you telling me I'm safer with my OEM seats and OEM belts if I <u>don't</u> install rollover protection?

Not necessarily.

If we install rollover protection with OEM ITR seats, we introduce the extra problem of maybe submarining under the harness bar of the Autopower setup in a cataclysmic multiple impact crash. However, we also introduce a measure of <u>greater</u> safety in the more common kind of violent rollover that would tend to crush the roof of the car, but without the multiple harsh impacts that would break the seat rails and the squab latch.

For this reason, we have decided to allow ITR with OEM seats and Autopower ERW setup with harness bar and cross brace to pass tech for the ITR Expo, assuming all common sense items are to spec, especially that the seat is firmly attached with the usual Honda/Acura rails and fittings.

We see the wisdom of the direction that NASA is moving, and we encourage everyone who has the Autopower setup with OEM seats to go ahead with the investment in FIA fixed back seats if they are continuing in the sport.

Part of the discussions today focused on whether some kind of safe seat brace could be fasioned for ITR OEM seats, and people are working on this idea. There doesn't seem to be any current seat brace that we could recommend.

All you'd really need is a broad, flat piece of metal fastened behind the driver's seat back that would keep the seat from being forced back. The irony is that the Autopower cross brace already provides this protection for the passenger seat.

Please remember that you are taking your life in your hands any time you're on the track. Although we are allowing ITR owners with OEM seats and the Autopower ERW unit to go out on the track, that does not mean that we can absolutely guarantee your safety or that you will not be injured or killed on the track.

<FONT COLOR="red">These comments are in addition to and explanation of, and not in derogation of the other ITR Expo safety rules.</FONT>

 

So, as far as seat selection, does this include JDM-R Recaros on factory rails and sliders? i would think with the stiffer shell and bolsters in the recaro it would be a no brainer to be included to pass tech...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">that does not mean that we can absolutely guarantee your safety or that you will not be injured or killed on the track.</TD></TR></TABLE>

no ****.

 

What about the people who have the bucket setups with Mugen rails? Looking at my Mugen rails they look stock.

 

You're probably better off with having a roll bar + buckets or replace the bucket seats w/ stock seats.

 

padding?

 

Thanks for the info George. I will soon also have the exact same setup as you in your ITR.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Willard &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">padding?</TD></TR></TABLE>

One thing that I do not see alot of is padding on bars/cages. I myself have tried to cover most of my Autopower 4pt with padding....

 

thanks for the update. i was getting worried about my set up...

 

Thanks Grandpa.

Now, the question is, I'm going to assume that this is just an ITR Expo exemption and that NASA will not allow OEM seats without a brace in a rollbar'd installed car (holy runon) @ HPDEs?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Although we are allowing ITR owners with OEM seats and the Autopower ERW unit to go out on the track, that does not mean that we can absolutely guarantee your safety or that you will not be injured or killed on the track.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That can also apply to everyone with a stock car and a fully caged race car. **** happens. We know what can happen. That's why we sign that waiver. *shrug*

 

For the areas near your head you will need the high density foam padding=&gt;




http://www.ioportracing.com/Me...=RBCA

or

http://www.hms-motorsport.com/...6#665

In an accident a helmet would crush the padding that you have and basically hit the rollbar like there was no padding there in the first place. This is what I have been told, so I switched to the higher density padding near my head and left the soft stuff everywhere else.


Modified by davidnyc at 9:51 AM 1/31/2004

 

High density foam must be used. You can order this from IOPort or pick it up from a retailer like OG Racing in Manassas.

 

Thanks for looking into it George.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thk &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Now, the question is, I'm going to assume that this is just an ITR Expo exemption and that NASA will not allow OEM seats without a brace in a rollbar'd installed car (holy runon) @ HPDEs?</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is still being discussed, and I do not have the power to tell NASA how to enforce the CCR.

It's possible that local authorities could be persuaded that the kind of cataclysmic event that we're talking about is either (1)virtually impossible or (2)not likely in Hondas of the EG dynasty and Integras of the DC2 dynasty. I don't know whether you've noticed or not, but our seats are really very firmly attached to the floor at a strong point that most domestic cars don't have.

It's also possible that since IOPort sells so many Autopower bars, we could persuade Ken to manufacture and make available the cheap metal plate that we were talking about for the driver side.

This is all about insurance liability and the possibility that one insurance claim could put the entire national organisation out of business.

Remember a few years ago when I cautioned that allowing people onto the track with harnesses and no rollover protection introduced a "profoundly obvious" safety concern? We felt at the time that any reasonable human being with a normal human being's intelligence would know that it was stupid to do that, so we felt that the organisation could be held responsible regardless of any waiver.

The insurance companies and lawyers are now arguing about "profoundly obvious" and what that phrase means when you're talking about hybrid safety systems.

When you introduce non-OEM safety equipment, you also force the tech inspectors to look at all kinds of things.

Will the guy's helmeted head stick up above the rollbar, negating its effectiveness?

Did he bolt his aftermarket seats in correctly, using OEM-type or better fasteners?

Is that aftermarket seat attached at a strong point in the floorpan? Is there bracing around the bolts?

Did he loop his harnesses around the bar correctly, so they won't pull loose in a collision?

Is the rear attachment point of the harnesses above that line drawn at a 45 degree angle?

It's a nightmare, and the more I have to deal with it the more I realise that we are all crazy.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's a nightmare, and the more I have to deal with it the more I realise that we are all crazy.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have to agree with Sir George about some of the above safety considerations, especially given my recent deer avoidance incident about a month ago.

However as George put it, the question seems to center around what a "reasonable human" would deem to be "profoundly obvious". An interesting consideration in light of the above quote.

Doesn't seem like much of an option for those wanting to continue doing multiple HPDE's in a serious manner other than to get fixed back seats for both the driver and passenger, an appropriately padded roll bar (though I'd even suggest a cage), and a correctly fastened set of race belts for both the occupants.

Hmmm ... seems like these people really should be building dedicated race cars, but then that brings up the need for tow vehicles and trailers, which is what most of us HPDE participants are not willing or able to do (hence our participation in HPDE's with our "street" cars). I really need to prep one of my CRXs in this manner for the occassional track day, and just bring out the ITR for the Expos.


Modified by zygspeed at 12:55 PM 1/31/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's also possible that since IOPort sells so many Autopower bars, we could persuade Ken to manufacture and make available the cheap metal plate that we were talking about for the driver side.</TD></TR></TABLE>

except that attaching this metal plate to the ITR seat will inevitibly result in damage to the seat, correct? I'm no expert, but I don't see how you could make a seat back brace that didn't alter the seats covering/padding in some manner.

Good luck convincing many ITR owners to damage their OEM Driver's seat.. I think they'd buy aftermarket buckets before they did that..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mstewar &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

except that attaching this metal plate to the ITR seat will inevitibly result in damage to the seat, correct? </TD></TR></TABLE>

We were actually talking about it bolting to the floor.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

We were actually talking about it bolting to the floor.</TD></TR></TABLE>

ah.. so I misunderstood and you weren't talking about a seatback brace.. sorry for the confusion on my part..

 

Just out of curiousity, although it's not optimal, would the non-high density padding pass tech if on a rollbar where the driver's/passenger's head would hit in the case of an accident?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sscguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just out of curiousity, although it's not optimal, would the non-high density padding pass tech if on a rollbar where the driver's/passenger's head would hit in the case of an accident?</TD></TR></TABLE>

The NASA CCR states that high-density padding must be used. What that means for the expo, I'm not sure.

 

Does the NASA CCR apply to both racing AND HPDEs, or just racing? If it does apply to HPDEs, I need to get myself a copy...

 

The CCR has sections for both. Some rules overlap and some don't.

The padding rule applies to both.

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf

 

So then this type isn't acceptable...CRAP. Another $11 to spend...

 

I'm assuming this goes for Kirk Roll bars w/ harnesses as well?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sscguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

So then this type isn't acceptable...CRAP. Another $11 to spend...</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was told that the padding i am using is fine.

 

As was I, Steve. I'm just trying to get an "official" word on it to avoid problems down the line. Something else I was thinking about, I know that high-density stuff is really friggin' hard. It would seem like there's a compromise being made between padding a helmeted head in an HPDE by using the high-density stuff, or better padding a non-helmeted head on the street (I'd think; the H-D stuff seems like it'd crack my skull open just as much as the rollbar piping). Thoughts?