I noticed that the top cars were all running Hoosiers this year at Nationals.
(David what prompted your switch?)

I was thinking of getting a set of Hoosiers to run at larger/national events next year and running Kuhmos as my every weekend tire.

Do you think this is advisable?

Are the characteristics of the tires much different beyond ultimate grip?
Are there alignment implications?
Or could I get an entire season out of two sets of Hoosiers and still not be hampered by worn tires as the season wears on?

Anxious to take the next step in the coming season.


[Modified by shamun, 1:39 AM 10/2/2001]

 

I think switching between the brands may be a mistake, the grips levels are as you noted, slightly different and unless you are at the highest level, I cant see spending the extra $50 a tire to gain the small advantage.
When you go to National/Divisional events and are frequently out of first by a few tenths, then it may be time to try the Hoosiers.

Hooisers do like more negative camber, which is hard to get in a stock Type R. And they will wear much quicker, especially on concrete.

I would say spend the $200 difference on an Evolution School. You just can't beat seat time.

 

As Stage One mentioned, it might not be a good idea. For me, I like sticking with one tire and not switching back and forth. There is definite grip and handling difference between the Kumhos and Hoosiers (although maybe the new Kumhos -- if they ever show up -- may close the gap).

Turn-in is a bit crisper with Hoosiers.

For Pro Solo-type launches, Hoosiers aren't as easy to launch.

Two sets would probably be pushing it. At least with a hardcore-autocross schedule (15-20 autocrosses with some two-day events thrown in).

 

On a 40-50 second concrete course, the Hoosiers tested about a half second faster on a GS ITR. That 1/2 second is the difference between 1st and 4th many times.

On pavement, you probably won't notice as much of a difference. And yeah, the hoosiers like camber, which is impossible to get on a stock ITR.

 

no question hoosiers are better if you have the money..... see if you can get a ride/drive in one of the crx's in pburgh.... tell andy i told him to give you a drive...

D

 

I phoned Tire Rack 2 weeks ago to ask about that, I was told "early October" I'm waiting to see how the initial reports are on those, then I'll probably be getting a set in December if they appear to be favorable. Thing that bothers me is that I can see no autocrosses around the VA area between mid-december and mid January, so the first time I actually RUN on them might be Ft. Myers Pro or the test-and-tune at that event site the week beforehand. A little scared on the seat time issue, since I've only been able to autocross the WRX once on street tires so... Ft. Myers might be the 3rd autox I run in the car, period. Scares me a bit!

 

This is just the post I was looking for since I have to decide what tires to run next year!

From my view so far, Hoosiers are clearly faster. I've seen this first hand this year. Here in Atlanta there is a fast IS300 in GS who ran most of the season on Kumhos. I think four events in a row I (also on kumhos) was able to beat him, sometimes by around 2 seconds. I kind of liked it that way! For the last two events I ran against him, he made the switch to hoosiers. Well, the gap went down to just a few tenths at one event and the next event he managed to beat me by 0.07. (My switch to 205 kumhos didn't exactly help the situation either!) Still, I couldn't believe what difference the tires made for him. Speaking to him he definitely recommends hoosiers over the kumhos. What he said echoed what other experienced autocrossers here in Atlanta had to say, so that's why I am inclined to give hoosiers a try for autox next year.

My only experience with hoosiers are at the track with the IT car. These are the harder roadrace compound hoosiers. Having driven back to back a car on hoosiers, then on toyos RA1s and also on kumho v700, Hoosiers are the way to go if winning is the goal. This might not be too relevant for autox, so I'm eagerly waiting to see what other people have experienced.


[Modified by Hracer, 3:07 AM 10/2/2001]

 

Speaking from having driven on both, (though a 205 kumho and a 225 hoosier), the hoosier is way stickier. The Kumho is a great tire. It lasts a long time, has some squawk at the limit, and are a good, sticky tire. The hoosier is glue. These are the road race compounds, too, not the stickier autocross tire. Driving across a parking lot at even slow speeds will tell you all you need to know. The hoosier will pick up gravel that the kumho will roll right over. Sure, rolling resistance is up, and there is only a hiss when they start to slide, instead of an audible warning the Kumhos give, but the limit is higher. They do not tolerate going over that limit, and will let go all at once. I am able to scrub speed off with Kumhos that will only result in a spin on Hoosiers, but drive within the limits, and the Hoosier is more rewarding. Now if I could only afford a steady stream of them....

 

If you were beating him by 2 seconds and then by only a few tenths then it wasn't the tires that made the entire difference; it was mainly that he improved his driving a heck of a lot.

Regards,
Alan

 

not necessarily true. in AS this year, i ran even with this other stock s2k until mr. fancy pants got himself some hoosiers. <u>immediate</u> 3-4 second improvement (over stock tires) on a ~60 second course.


[Modified by Speedy, 10:27 AM 10/2/2001]

 

I think he is talking about difference between Kumho and Hoosiers, not stock and Hoosiers. There will be a much smaller difference between them then between stocks and hoosiers.

 

Or it could have been me who slowed down!

Al, the driver of the IS300 has been doing this stuff for a while. I remember him running well in CS the last few years. He seems to be always fast. He said that he also dialed in 1.5 deg of camber all-around (guess the IS300 can do that stock?), so this together with hoosiers could make a significant difference I suppose. He also keeps in touch with the 3rd place national IS300 driver and told me that guy ran 245s hoosiers on stock-sized 7 inch wide rims. Talk about grip! After all, that guy in the IS300 at the nationals ran so well that he did beat all non-hoosier equipped cars out there.

The BFG g force R1s could be another alternative, but they're discontinued now. I loved them when I had them two years ago. Maybe the new kumho tire will be on the same level as the hoosiers? But then again, maybe the inevitable will happen again where the extra money does get those last ounces of grip.

 

An interesting note in case it's relevant, at the last event I had the pleasure to drive another type r for a run on stock tires with also a passenger onboard and only ran 1 and a half seconds slower than what I ran with my regular GS car on 205s kumho V700s. Taking the passenger out of the equation, the difference would have been only about 1 second.

 

If the R was on the RE-010's, then it has been noted that the 010's are only about 1 sec slower than kumhos on a 30 sec course. Those 010's are great autox tires for a street tire.

 

dude, 1 sec on a 30 sec course is a damn eternity.

D

 

Does the autocrosser come in a 15? I think Shamun is talking about the road race compound. The autocrosser is insanely sticky, and has it's own weird set of behaviours. I think the kumho can give pretty much any other DOT tire a run for its money on pavement, on concrete the Hoosiers seem to have some more grip, but i did manage to beat an autocrosser-shod CRX in CSP on concrete...by 4/1000ths of a second For my money, Kumho V700 is the no-brainer, I just couldn't afford the hoosiers with as much racing as i do. As it stands, my V700s are getting pretty thin, and i flipped a pair of them, probably going to flip the other pair before track day or next event, whichever comes first.

 

They make the A3S03 (autocross) in 205/50-15 and 225/45-15.

Does anyone have experience with the 225/45 in front and 205/50 in rear. I know this is similar to the "hot" kuhmo setup, but I keep hearing these bad camber issues on the hoosiers.

Can anyone elaborate on the camber issues associated with the hoosiers? I am not fluent in the the implications of "hoosiers like a lot of camber". Is that positive or negative? Will it make the car hard to turn in ...etc.? Will it cause the tire to wear uneven.

BTW I had a set of "test" ECSTAs towards the end of the year. They had a little bit of track time on them when I got them. I am not sure if they were heat-cycled or not, but they did not hold up worth a damm. I ran about 8 events on them and they are pretty much shot. One of the tires actually corded in two spots in the center of the tire (about the size of a dime). It actually looked as though the rubber was coming away from the carcass.

I also think the ultimate grip provided was not as high as the Victoracers. I don't think I ever lifted an inside wheel with them, which I saw D and Aleph do plenty of this year on the "old tire".

Keep in mind these were test tires, but I think my experience is indicative of why they have not arrived for sale yet. The compound sucks and they need have some serious work to do before it is acceptable.

This was my first experience with Kuhmos and Race tires in general. I think that is why I am leaning toward the extra money for Hoosiers.

 

Negative camber is recommended for hoosiers, like 2 degrees all around, and that's not going to be possible in stock class unless you strategically hit a guardrail on both sides or something That'll mean increased wear on the inside edge while you're daily driving, and fairly even wear at the limit. When my GS-R was lowered, i had completely bald inner tread on my P7000s, no matter how much i rotated, and that wasn't even a significant drop. Stock, the R has some negative camber in the rear -0 degrees, 45' and -0 degrees 30' in the front, whereas the GS-R has -0 degrees 10' front. I don't know how much more you'd want to crank it up for hoosiers, but again, i think that's for the radials. The bias-ply autocrosser might not need as much camber, it's a damn gumball anyway Expect to use 2 sets per season heavy use tho

 

You've got your sizes incorrect. The current Kumho isn't offered in a 225/45/15, only a 225/50/50

In any event, David Fauth (DFauth), Caleb Miller (typerracer), or Alan Pozner (00R101) all have used the Hoosier setup listed below and are members of this board.

 

I did some back-2-back testing on asphalt over the winter between the Kumhos and Hoosier A3S03s. My testing, albeit not perfectly scientific, showed the Hoosiers to be a slight bit faster on asphalt. I have no data on concrete. Thos results combined with the fact that the Hoosiers are lighter and shorter made me decide to change.

However, as someone above stated, unless you are consistently just a couple tenths away from the win at the National level, I would recommend getting Kumhos. They last a LOT longer and are a LOT cheaper. The only way I didn't double my tire budget this year was by winning a lot ot tires at Nationals!

As far as handling characteristics: the Hoosiers have better turn-in, but I think the Kumhos might be a little more forgiving when you go "over the edge." Also, the Hoosiers go away more quickly when they overheat, so I end up spraying them down on a hot day with only 1 driver!

 

dude, no one said that it wasn't. Point is, a one second gap between street tires and autox dot slicks on a 30 sec course is pretty darn good. Many times, it's more like 2-3.


[Modified by Todd00, 5:28 PM 10/3/2001]

 

(btw, the street tire/kumho v700 comparison I mentioned earlier was done on a low 40 second course. The RE010s, just as I thought before are really great tires.)


Awesome discussion! My take so far is that Hoosiers are the fastest autox tire period. By how much, still not sure. But since all stock classes at the nationals were won on Hoosiers - most classes taking at least the top 3+ on these tires, makes me feel that there must be a good reason behind it. After all, why would someone pay so much more for a tire that wears out so fast for just very minimal gains in performance? I see it that if I would ever make the long trip to Topeka, I would want to have the best car I could provide myself with. That way, I know that whatever the difference is between me and the leader is all because of the driver. I don't want to have excuses in saying it was the tires, etc.. It would just make me feel better!

Having said that, I would like to know if the hoosier autocross compound is "that" much better than the roadrace compound? Also, for the hoosier ITR autocrossers out there: 205s are run in the back because 225s won't fit OR because the car has better balance with 225f 205r? Also, to set the pressure, do you guys set it once cold and let it rise, or set it at the indented hot pressure and just bleed it down after every run? Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks!


[Modified by Hracer, 9:59 PM 10/3/2001]

 

I won GS last year on Kumhos, beating out several Hoosier drivers, so I don't think that you can make a blanket conclusion that you need Hoosiers to win. Kevin McCormick, although he had a bad day this year, has been fast all year on Kumhos. Don't tell Hoosier I'm saying this, but I'd suggest that you save your money and use Kumhos... Also, the fact that everyone uses Hoosiers: don't discount the "lemming factor."

From speaking with several people that roadrace and autox, the roadrace compound is not nearly as quick on an autox course as the autox compound...but they won't wear out as quickly either.

The 225/205 question: I run the 205s for balance and the fact that there's so little weight back there that you don't NEED the extra tire.

Bleeding: Most people I know, including myself, bleed the pressures. I run 1-2psi lower in front cold than hot, but the rears I always run the same. I don't like leaving my pressures to chance due to differences in air temp, surface temp, and driving style...

 

David, thank you so much for providing valuable first hand feedback, especially considering your level of experience. The quality of the people that post on this honda board makes it simply awesome!

I hope I am not sounding like I don't like kumhos. In my opinion this tire can not be beat when it comes down to value. It costs a whole lot cheaper than anything else out there and it manages to be maybe only marginally down on grip to only the stickiest (and most expensive) tire out there. The reason why I'm on my second set of kumhos this year is exactly because of that. But, hearing of all the praise that the veteran autocrossers in my region (Atlanta) give hoosiers, it just makes me very curious to see how they would do on the type r in autox. Another factor could be that I used to race on kumhos for a while in IT when I first started. Then as things started to happen, I ended up racing on hoosiers (road race compound) and for the past two years, all I can say is that if you can find the means to run on them - do it. They really are that good on the track.

I've wanted to make the nationals for a while now, but was never in a position to be able to take a week of in the middle of september. Next year it looks like it will be possible, but not the year after that. This is why I think it would be a good idea to go ahead with hoosiers and prep the car as much as I can over the winter for next season. So now I'm just trying to get as much information as possible.

So to go a little further, could you give a rough idea of what pressures are good to run on a type r on hoosiers if you don't mind? All I know is that we run relatively "high" cold pressures with these on the crx, and I’m not sure what this would translate to autox. Thanks. And keep these posts coming!

 

Caleb Miller and Tom Birchard (2nd in GS this year) did some back to back testing too of the Kumho's and Hoosiers. Just "swagging" the Hoosier pressures (in their words) they were able to save over a half second on a 30 second course (I think this is what Todd is referring to). Note, there testing was on concrete and their seat of the pants impression was that the car seemed much faster and that was validated by the time reduction.

Also note, that some good eyes (the STS Nat. Champ) was on course working when GS ran. He commented that the guys on Hoosiers were just simply faster everywhere, sweepers, slaloms, etc. That combined with the more scientific data above provides pretty firm proof that the Hoosiers are faster (at least on concrete).

The question for next year will be how much faster is the new kumho? It's much lighter and will now be offered in the 225/45/15 (yeah!) which could pose a new threat. If it drives anything like the old g-Force R1's I'm going with them. The Hoosier's just wear too fast and for those of us that aren't winning National Championship every year, those damn tires get too expensive