Thinking about going to VIR with the club in Feb, never had any experience with them. Anyone here a member? Thanks.

 

Tarheel? Oh the pain I have done quite a few BMWCCA schools and enjoyed most of them, the Tarheel school in particular at VIR however was not one of them. It may be entirely different today but at the time, they used up one session brake only, one session one gear only, one session threshold braking/slalom excercises. As a _paying_ student, this was quite expensive and I wouldn't recommend it. Other groups (BMW) will do the same brake/gear exercises but limit it to one session combined - its a great exercise and I enjoy it but buring more than one session to me, is a bit costly. NASA has a school there in Feb (21st I believe) and in my experience from a student perspective, they are a ton of fun.

 

I can't say anything about the BMW or tarheel classes, but NASA rocks, lots of track time, good instruction, definitely worth the money.

 

Tarheel Sports Car Club (not BMW) is also there Feb 14-15 (Full course), we won't have any sessions that are anything other than driving laps, so that might be a good option for you.

Last I heard we were also still taking instructors for the event.

Scott

 

I ran with BMWCCA at Road Atlanta a couple of times. They require right seats in all cars, even race cars. For the novice group, the first session was a "touring lap" @ 60 MPH w/o helmet.

Other then those 2 things they are just like PCA. Lots of track time, 4 20-30min sessions per day, and great instructors.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by genxguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thinking about going to VIR with the club in Feb, never had any experience with them. Anyone here a member? Thanks.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sandlapper? I was thinking about going as well. I'm not a Sandlapper member but a member of BMWCCA so I am wondering if I have to pay the $13 for dual chapter membership in order to run...

 

Sandlapper is actually a very fun group to run with in my experience. I only had a BMWCCA membership (not Sandlapper specifically) in the past. They have done a couple events in conjunction with NASA-VA and Carolina's Mustang Club so the format from my experience was very similar. Ronn puts on a good show and a good amount of seat time.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by genxguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thinking about going to VIR with the club in Feb, never had any experience with them. Anyone here a member? Thanks.</TD></TR></TABLE>

VIR doesn't have their 2004 schedule up on their website, so I don't know if the BMW club you mention of is in fact the THSCC. The Tarheel club is running an even Feb 14-15, and in addition to running HPDE groups, they will be doing Time Trials as well. I've signed up, and may participate in the Time Trials if I get my roll bar installed in time.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sscguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I can't say anything about the BMW or tarheel classes, but NASA rocks, lots of track time, good instruction, definitely worth the money.</TD></TR></TABLE>

LOL, you're kidding right?

 

http://www.trackschedule.com/sched.html

only BMW club at VIR in Feb is Sandlapper.

I would be there if that wasnt the weekend my gf reserved for our anniversary celebration

 

BMWCCA is very Chapter specific. I have heard nothing but good things about the Tarheel chapter.

Overall BMWCCA differs from most other clubs I have run with. Most clubs provide barely adequate instruction and a lot of track time but the learning aspect is taken for granted.

BMWCCA and in particular my chapter, places all it's emphasis on learning with extensive skidpad testing and other excercises such as the braking and off line excercises.

They keep track of your progress each event and grade you unlike other clubs.

If you really want to learn the technical stuff and have a lot of instruction they are great BUT..............

....they are also extremely **** RETENTIVE about saftey and racing. My chapter, National Capital Chapter doesn't take to kindly to cars with cages and extensive race preperations and they seem to have a really negative attitude about people with race experience.

In drivers meeting they make all sorts of rude comments about SCCA and racing.

And forget about what you have done in terms of experience at other clubs, as a first time participant at a National Capital Chapter you will run in beginner and not be signed off the first event at all (not always a bad thing).

Those of you that know me, know I have done at least 1000 laps at Summit Point in everything from 105 hp Spec Racers to 420 hp GT cars. Yet when I run with BMWCAA I am treated like a child and usually am signed off the last day.

I have a SCCA regional license and a national license yet in their eyes I can't possibly have the skill or talent level of their instructors even though I can drive the pants off most of them.

That to me is the most frustrating thing. If you are a student you ARE A STUDENT and will never be looked upon as an equal to their instructors even if you do have more skill or speed.

I quit doing their events when I got to the skill level that I didn't need an instructor anymore (or didn't feel I could learn anything from their instructors).

If you are a racer or hardcore track fanatic and are looking for track time than at least my chapter of BMWCCA isn't the way to go.

If you are a beginner or intermediate and want to learn more, then BMWCCA is the way to go since they go much further beyond what most HPDE's go.

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod
96 Integra Grand Am Cup Car

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by maxQ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sandlapper? I was thinking about going as well. I'm not a Sandlapper member but a member of BMWCCA so I am wondering if I have to pay the $13 for dual chapter membership in order to run...</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, you do not. Any chapter of BMW CCA will accept a member of any other chapter BMW CCA in its events without any additional dual chapter membership requirement.

I have been driving in BMW CCA events for 17 years, including events held by ~10 different chapters, and I think they are superb. Their events provide tons of track time, learning, safety, and fun. I think their events are as safe as anyone's, and much safer than some other groups. And, with all the different chapters they have, they hold lots and lots of events at lots and lots of tracks around the country.

As for ITSRACER's comments about their treatment of experienced drivers, I would disagree wholeheartedly. However, they are not going to simply take someone's word that he is a hotshoe driver, but they will give you a chance to see how you do. If you are an experienced track driver, and you go to one of their events and show that you are fast, then when you go to additional events held by that same chapter you are likely to be placed in the experienced run group, allowed to run solo, and possibly even invited to the Friday open lapping day for instructors (most, but not all, chapters allow their most experienced students to participate). Been there, done that (before I became one of their instructors).

 

This event is held by the Sandlapper club.

So with BMWCCA, the chapter that you join is the only one you can run with without paying extra?

I've met couple of BMWCCA instructors and even had one as my instructor for an Audi Club event, and I've had nothing but good experiences so far. They weren't from National Capital Chapter, tho. How different is each chapter, in terms of event planning and such?

VIR with THSCC on 14/15... hmm.. that's a possibility. Do they run a lot of track time?
edit: thought it was BMW Tarheel, instead of THSCC.


Modified by genxguy at 6:44 PM 1/14/2004


Modified by genxguy at 6:45 PM 1/14/2004

 

I'm not sure about the BMW club, but I can say you'd be happy with the THSCC event that's there two weeks earlier.

The downside, I suppose, is that it's the middle of February instead of the end -- although I can't imagine the weather would really be much different.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
VIR with Tarheel Chapter on 14/15</TD></TR></TABLE>

THSCC =\ BMW club

 

Yeah yeah yeah, I want to be clear on that, Tarheel Sportscar Club/Triangle Z-Car Club (THSCC) is an absolute blast. I have always had a stupid fun time at these events (watch out for the bees though ). I was referring to Tarheel BMWCCA. The two could not be more different IMO.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by genxguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So with BMWCCA, the chapter that you join is the only one you can run with without paying extra?</TD></TR></TABLE>

NO! It's exactly the opposite.

When you join BMW CCA, you are normally assigned to a chapter based on where you live. You can then participate in track events held by ANY chapter WITHOUT paying extra for dues. You only need the one membership in your home chapter.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When you join BMW CCA, you are normally assigned to a chapter based on where you live. You can then participate in track events held by ANY chapter WITHOUT paying extra for dues. You only need the one membership in your home chapter.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

What's maxQ talking about, then?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by maxQ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm not a Sandlapper member but a member of BMWCCA so I am wondering if I have to pay the $13 for dual chapter membership in order to run...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> As for ITSRACER's comments about their treatment of experienced drivers, I would disagree wholeheartedly. However, they are not going to simply take someone's word that he is a hotshoe driver, but they will give you a chance to see how you do. If you are an experienced track driver, and you go to one of their events and show that you are fast, then when you go to additional events held by that same chapter you are likely to be placed in the experienced run group, allowed to run solo, ..
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was put in advanced run group on my very first event solely because of the speed differential of my car (F355). I didn't have a problem not being soloed at my first event given they had no idea who I was. But at subsequent events they always made it a big deal. At one point I was told "please don't make us regret this.." Sorry, but I have raced SCCA for years, done a season of Skip Barber (not the school the race series) and have 100+ track events under my belt. I don't mind having an instructor in the car and understand and respect their quest for saftey but don't I didn't like that they talked down to me on occassion.

I know there are a couple of National Capital Chapter folks on this board and want to clarify that the Chapter has some truely outstanding instructors as well as some great event organizers but there are a few people who rubbed me the wrong way with their general statements and specific ones directed at me.

Anyone that knows me, knows that I am fast, safe and experienced.

As for their instructors, some were world class instructors, others were marginal at best.

Again I am just trying to contrast events run by groups like Trackmasters, Car Guys, the Audi Club and others that offer both instruction for the beginner and intermediate BUT also a place for seasoned track nuts and club racers that merely want track time to test and tune their cars for race season.

You certainly learn a lot more in BMWCCA than in the other mentioned groups but that is not what everyone wants.

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by genxguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What's maxQ talking about, then?</TD></TR></TABLE>

When you join BMW CCA, you are assigned to a chapter based on your address. This costs $35.00 per year. You then receive your chapter's newsletter and other mailings.

You have the option to add a dual membership for $13.50 a year, so that you are also a member of another chapter in addition to your "home" chapter. By doing this, you then receive the dual chapter's newsletter and other mailings, in addition to the ones by your home chapter.

You can sign up for the track event of any BMW CCA chapter without being a member of that chapter, as long as you are a member of BMW CCA. In other words, you are not required to purchase a dual membership for the chapter holding the track event (assuming here that it's not your home chapter).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When you join BMW CCA, you are normally assigned to a chapter based on where you live. You can then participate in track events held by ANY chapter WITHOUT paying extra for dues. You only need the one membership in your home chapter.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I thought so, too. Until I read this:

" Membership in the BMW CCA, Sandlapper Chapter is REQUIRED. To join call 864-250-0022."

Sandlapper Info

And then this on the actual app:

"BMW CCA members that are NOT Sandlapper Chapter members, call 864-250-0022 to join our chapter."
Sandlapper App

Dual chapter membership is $13. So I'm confused. I guess I'll call them.

Andy

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ITSRACER &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">&lt; various comments &gt;</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not going to debate on a point-by-point basis. Obviously, your experience is what it is, and mine is different from yours. There are just a few points I would like to throw out there:

1. Different chapters have different standards and operating procedures, just like different clubs and organizations do. Some are very strict about safety standards; some are not. Some offer lots of track time; some do not. You can run into a "personality clash" with things that irk you anywhere, and this is apparently what happened to you with one particular chapter. I have even seen different people treated differently even at a single event, where one person was singled out and treated rudely and everyone else was treated with respect and fairness. Anyone can run into some bad treatment anywhere, with any chapter or club or group, and it may or may not be representative of what everyone else receives, with that chapter/club/group or others. 'nuff said.

2. I have run with other groups too, including Trackmasters, TrackTime, NASA, PCA, CGI Motorsports, and others. I have found that, as an advanced student, I have gotten more track time at BMW CCA events than at almost anyone else's - and that their events are as safe as anyone else's, and safer than most.

I would suggest that anyone try events with a number of different groups, to see which ones fit your needs best - where you get the amount of track time you want, and the amount of instruction you want, at the price you want, with people you want to be with. In my experience, BMW CCA does a great job - whether you're a novice, or an experienced student, or an instructor. Give them a try and make your own decision on whether it meets your needs.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by maxQ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I thought so, too. Until I read this:

" Membership in the BMW CCA, Sandlapper Chapter is REQUIRED. To join call 864-250-0022."

Sandlapper Info

And then this on the actual app:

"BMW CCA members that are NOT Sandlapper Chapter members, call 864-250-0022 to join our chapter."
Sandlapper App

Dual chapter membership is $13. So I'm confused. I guess I'll call them.

Andy</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, call them. I have never run into this, despite events with ~10 chapters. It's possible that that particular chapter requires membership in its chapter, even though I've never seen it at the various chapters with whom I have driven in track events.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by John &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
LOL, you're kidding right?</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's just the right amount for me, after the 3rd session on Sunday I'm beat. And other than Car Guys, it seems to have about the same amount of tracktime as any other group.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As for ITSRACER's comments about their treatment of experienced drivers, I would disagree wholeheartedly. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Have you ever been to a National Capital Chapter school as an experienced driver? In my experience Jon's description of the National Capital Chapter schools is spot on.

This is not true of many other chapters. New Jersey, Del Val, Genessee for example. All three of those chapters treat experienced drivers quite well, in my experience.

joel
former member National Capital Chapter BMW CCA
now a member NJ Chapter BMW CCA
No, I haven't moved to NJ either

PS. just so y'all dont get the wrong idear, I'm not dissing ALL of the BMW CCA, just the NCC. I'm an instructor for the NJ/DV/GV troika and a BMW CCA club racer.


Modified by JoelG at 4:20 PM 1/15/2004

 

Nsxtasy,


Not in any way trying to poo poo BMWCCA. I have been a member for 12 years. It's a great club overall. As far as the comments I made about being treated somewhat less than I appreciate it was not a one time issue nor was it always directed at me but other's in general. From what I have heard from others, including Joel who posted above the Tarheel Chapter and the NJ Chapter are great.

But in regards to National Capital Chapter, Joel and I are only a few of many National Capital Chapter members who have left. Class sizes at most track events have dropped by half. At some schools the student teacher ratio dropped to 1-1. In 2000 we had sometimes 40-50 students at Summit Point. My last event with them we had 14 students.

Statements like "...if you want to race join the Yahoos over at SCCA" and "...you don't need a cage here you're not going to trade paint" rubbed me the wrong way. Telling me I don't need a cage is a stupid statement. It's a saftey issue.

I also took issue with an instructor (female) who argued with me in the car that I was not taking the correct rain line that BMWCCA (our chapter) teaches their students. I said "what rain line" there is no specific rain line. I argued with her that I was searching for grip and that there are a hundred different rain lines dependant on your tires, your car, track conditions, etc....

She told me to pull into the pits and scolded me for not obeying her. These are just a few of the stupid statements and policies they preach. I am sure Joel could add a bunch more.

I guess the final draw was by an organizer that "...we are not the Ferrari Club, we don't shut down because it's drizzling outside". Just plain stupid stuff. Ironically that event (day) was cancelled because the volunteer flaggers (BMWCCA'ers) didn't want to be in the flag stands with lightening and torrential downpour. I told the event organizer that I had never been to a Ferrari event that ended because of rain.

The students in our chapter are all great people as are about 90% of the instructors but the poeple up top are way too anally retentive.

And as for Trackmasters vs. BMWCCA track time it's no contest. Not sure which events you have run but in Open Track we get three to four 1 Hour sessions. I have never had a 1 hour seesion in BMWCCA. Not only that I get to run with people like David Murray (Daytona 24 Hour Winner) and others in Porsche GT3 Cup Cars.

It all depends on what you are going to the track and hoping to accomplish there. BMWCCA is great in most respects for learning high performance driving and is the safest organization out there. It is not however conducive to bringing you club racer out for setup and testing.

Regards,

Jon