My brake pedal started to get a bit mushy late last summer (when I only had 6000 miles on the car), and it's gotten a bit worse now that I've done 6 autocrosses and one long practice session.

I did a search, and it seems as though y'all are indicating that ATE is overkill for a regular daily-driven, occasionally autocrossed car. After talking with a few friends, it seems as though ATE is more likely to absorb moisture? Can you recommend a good brake fluid that will work well on my daily driven Accord (that is autocrossed 1-2 times/month)?

People have recommended I go to wal-mart/autozone, and buy anything DOT4...

 

Try Valvoline Synpower I think it's called. Comes in a platinum-looking bottle, pretty cheap. Sounds like it would be just about perfect for what you need. DOT4, pretty high dry and wet BP's

 

haha, I was just looking at that! I'll see if the usual autozone/wal-mart will carry it. Just curious, how much per quart? I won't be able to find out until late tomorrow...

Is there any reason why I should stick with Genuine Honda brake fluid?

 

You might have glazed the pads or bent the backing plates, don't forget to check that.

Otherwise...Second the Valvoline Synpower stuff. All my street-driven stuff gets this. Although if you end up doing track events, I'm of the opinion that it's marginal at best.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You might have glazed the pads or bent the backing plates, don't forget to check that.</TD></TR></TABLE>

hmmm, what could cause this, and what should I look for when I take my wheel off for the first time? I think I'll end up getting the valvoline synpower

 

Glazed: the rotor-facing surface of the pad will be noticably "shiny" across most of its surface...as though areas of the pad melted and were spread like butter. You might also notice some amount of pad material "smeared" across your rotors. At least that's what I've seen when I glazed pads.

Bent backing plates: self explanatory. The metal backing plate will not be perfectly straight.

The cause: could actually be a number of things for any of those problems. Sticking caliper pins...heat...over-braking or "abusive" braking...ill-fitting pads within the caliper...lots of possibilities.

Start with flushing the fluid and putting in something good. If the pedal still sucks, I'd put money on the pads being the problem. Autocross typically should not boil brake fluid unless the fluid is *seriously* old.

 

You might want to start by just bleeding the system... air in the sytem usually is the cause of mushy pedal ...

Castrol GT-LMA is also cheap (and available) good brake fluid.

 

I think you would be better off with an even better brake fluid, such as Cobalt Super XRF or Motul RBF 600.

Remember, the higher the boiling temperature, the more resistant the brake fluid is to boiling - dry boiling temp when it's straight out of the bottle, wet boiling temp after it's been in the car a while and absorbed moisture over time.

Here are the dry and wet boiling points for many of the most popular brake fluids:

ARRANGED BY DRY BOILING POINT:

DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM
DRY:502F -- WET:343F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER
DRY:509F -- WET:365F --- MOTUL 5.1
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551
DRY:536F -- WET:392F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200
DRY:590F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF
DRY:593F -- WET:420F --- MOTUL RBF600
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO-SYNTHETIC SUPER DOT 610
DRY:620F -- WET:425F --- COBALT SUPER XRF

ARRANGED BY WET BOILING POINT:

DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM
DRY:502F -- WET:343F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM
DRY:509F -- WET:365F --- MOTUL 5.1
DRY:536F -- WET:392F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200
DRY:590F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600
DRY:593F -- WET:420F --- MOTUL RBF600
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO-SYNTHETIC SUPER DOT 610
DRY:620F -- WET:425F --- COBALT SUPER XRF
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF

You can get many of these from Andie at Cobalt Friction, who sells lots of great brake products at great prices and can give you great advice, too.

 

So you think he needs RBF600 for a STREET car?

If you're boiling your brake fluid on public roads you deserve a kick in the face.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JoeLee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You might want to start by just bleeding the system... air in the sytem usually is the cause of mushy pedal ...

Castrol GT-LMA is also cheap (and available) good brake fluid. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually, I went downstairs with a flashlight and looked in the reservoir. My brake fluid has some suspended precipitate in it! After only 1.5 years, 10k miles, and 6 autocrosses (and one back-to-back 18-run practice session)!!!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Glazed: the rotor-facing surface of the pad will be noticably "shiny" across most of its surface...as though areas of the pad melted and were spread like butter. You might also notice some amount of pad material "smeared" across your rotors. At least that's what I've seen when I glazed pads.

Bent backing plates: self explanatory. The metal backing plate will not be perfectly straight.

The cause: could actually be a number of things for any of those problems. Sticking caliper pins...heat...over-braking or "abusive" braking...ill-fitting pads within the caliper...lots of possibilities.

Start with flushing the fluid and putting in something good. If the pedal still sucks, I'd put money on the pads being the problem. Autocross typically should not boil brake fluid unless the fluid is *seriously* old.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'll definitely take a look at this


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So you think he needs RBF600 for a STREET car?

If you're boiling your brake fluid on public roads you deserve a kick in the face.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

lol, I'm not even sure if brake fade is an issue for me yet (when dodging cones)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So you think he needs RBF600 for a STREET car?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes. He's autocrossing his car twice a month. And using a higher-performance brake fluid like RBF600 doesn't hurt anything when used on the street; it may be overkill, but it's just a few bucks more than the everyday stuff, and he'll need it for the autocrosses.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LX4CYL &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">After only 1.5 years, 10k miles, and 6 autocrosses (and one back-to-back 18-run practice session)!!!</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's not frequent enough for track use. Any time you are going to be driving your car on a racetrack (including autocross), you should have had the fluid flushed within the previous 6-8 months.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You might have glazed the pads or bent the backing plates, don't forget to check that.

Otherwise...Second the Valvoline Synpower stuff. All my street-driven stuff gets this. Although if you end up doing track events, I'm of the opinion that it's marginal at best.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is the same thing my instructor said. My car's (a basically stock 98 Integra) brake pedal got soft in a real hurry on track.

RS, who ran his first HPDE with Synpower and AutoZone OE replacement brake pads.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Yes. He's autocrossing his car twice a month. And using a higher-performance brake fluid like RBF600 doesn't hurt anything when used on the street; it may be overkill, but it's just a few bucks more than the everyday stuff, and he'll need it for the autocrosses.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Motul RBF600 is more than twice the price of Ate Superblue/Type 200.

Ate Superblue/Type 200 is more than anyone will ever need for autocross or street driving. Why pay over twice the price for RBF600, just for functionality that you'll never use? Especially when fluid is a "wear item."

JMO.

 

just so you all know I've just picked up 2 bottles of valvoline synpower do you recommend I get rid of some of the old fluid in the MC this way? :

1. Use turkey baster to stir up and suck out old fluid
2. Put new fluid in
3. repeat 1+2 until fluid in reservoir doesn't look nasty
4. start pump+bleed process for all 4 corners...

sound good?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Targa250R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Motul RBF600 is more than twice the price of Ate Superblue/Type 200.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, and you're talking about a difference of maybe ten friggin' dollars.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Targa250R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why pay over twice the price for RBF600, just for functionality that you'll never use?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Because the dry boiling point of the Motul is 57 degrees higher; that's a HUGE difference. It might actually make a difference in autocross. And besides, he might enjoy autocross so much that he decides to participate in a road course event.

I would take the extra boilover protection and pay the measly ten bucks any day of the week. To me, it's a no brainer.

 

ah, if my valvloline synpower doesn't work out, then I'll bump up to these better fluids...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Yes, and you're talking about a difference of maybe ten friggin' dollars. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Try a difference of $18 if you buy 1 liter of each.

Hey, I can do that too:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Because the dry boiling point of the Motul is 57 degrees higher; that's a HUGE difference. It might actually make a difference in autocross. And besides, he might enjoy autocross so much that he decides to participate in a road course event.

I would take the extra boilover protection and pay the measly ten bucks any day of the week. To me, it's a no brainer.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well not everybody is you, and not everybody uses their car in the same way as you. Therefore, for those who don't need the higher boiling point, I'm sure they'd rather not be pissing money away for no reason.

Ate fluid is more than anyone will ever need for autocross. Do you realize how much boilover protection you don't need for autocross? Ate fluid is also adequate for novice HPDE users. Certainly there is a point at which an improving road course driver eventually will need to spend a little more to upgrade their brakes - but this is getting away from the needs of the user. Sure, I could spend $70 for a liter of Castrol SRF in anticipation of driving in the Speed World Challenge some day, but would that really be necessary right now?

My point is that Ate is cheap and more than adequate. For a wear item like fluid, why **** away extra money? It's like filling up your car with premium fuel when it only requires regular.

Your point is that you'd rather spend twice the money for a minimal increase in protection that you won't need - that's fine too, nobody is going to stop you. I'll agree to disagree.

 

You've stated your point. In fact, it sounds very much like another one of those "religious crusades" which will never get resolved, like those who favor conventional oil over synthetic, or vice versa. Some people will always favor better quality (even for small differences) and won't care about cost factors, some will always favor lower cost (even for small differences) and won't care about quality factors, and some will be somewhere in the middle.

I think LX4CYL's strategy of trying one fluid (in his case, Valvoline) and moving up if he boils it is fine.

As for me, I'll continue to use Motul in my cars that get tracked and/or driven hard, and I don't mind spending a few bucks extra for it (just as I'll use plain Jane stuff in the GF's car, that doesn't). But my needs are... well, we're here in the Road Racing/Autocross forum; need I say more?

So yes, we can both agree to disagree...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxtasy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You've stated your point. In fact, it sounds very much like another one of those "religious crusades" which will never get resolved [...] we're here in the Road Racing/Autocross forum; need I say more?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
While I read, understood, and agree with your post, and I realize I am going off on a tangent now, I just couldn't resist a little creative editing . . .

 

Something to keep in mind with the Motul stuff though...you don't have to bleed it nearly as often as lesser fluids. So if he adds track events to the addiction, brake fluid becomes a non-factor. I bleed mine *maybe* every three race weekends.

Agreed though that it's a bit much on a street/autocross car.