2004 NASA CCR is out
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From: Jasma
2004 NASA CCR is out
Get it at http://www.nasaproracing.com under the rules section.
Some things of significance I noticed:
For competition:
-door bars are now required on both sides
-" All belts should meet either A) SFI Specification 16.1 and shall bear a dated
label of no more than two (2) years old. At least one date label is required on
belt sets. Or B) a restraint systems meeting FIA spec #8853/1985, 8853/98, or
D-###.T/98, including amendment 1/92 may be used. FIA certified belts have a
label that shows an expiration date. The belts cannot be used past December
31st of the year shown on the label. At least one date label is required on belt
sets. "
-" The window net must
carry an SFI label indicating a date showing that the net is less than two (2) years old. "
Which means that a lot of ppl will be buying new harnesses
Myself Included
And for HPDE:
-all the ppl that bought the old harnesses for use in HPDE's....you may throw them out at this point...harnesses fall under the same rule for both competition and HPDE...so 2 yrs for SFI rated harness, and before expiration date on FIA rated ones (like stated above)
Matt
Some things of significance I noticed:
For competition:
-door bars are now required on both sides
-" All belts should meet either A) SFI Specification 16.1 and shall bear a dated
label of no more than two (2) years old. At least one date label is required on
belt sets. Or B) a restraint systems meeting FIA spec #8853/1985, 8853/98, or
D-###.T/98, including amendment 1/92 may be used. FIA certified belts have a
label that shows an expiration date. The belts cannot be used past December
31st of the year shown on the label. At least one date label is required on belt
sets. "
-" The window net must
carry an SFI label indicating a date showing that the net is less than two (2) years old. "
Which means that a lot of ppl will be buying new harnesses
Myself Included
And for HPDE:
-all the ppl that bought the old harnesses for use in HPDE's....you may throw them out at this point...harnesses fall under the same rule for both competition and HPDE...so 2 yrs for SFI rated harness, and before expiration date on FIA rated ones (like stated above)
Matt
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From: Arlington, NoVA, USA
Re: 2004 NASA CCR is out (El Pollo Diablo)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And for HPDE:
-all the ppl that bought the old harnesses for use in HPDE's....you may throw them out at this point...harnesses fall under the same rule for both competition and HPDE...so 2 yrs for SFI rated harness, and before expiration date on FIA rated ones (like stated above)
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Which I find quite ridiculous since my harnesses will be removed after each event. The only sunlight they will see will be when I'm on track...
-all the ppl that bought the old harnesses for use in HPDE's....you may throw them out at this point...harnesses fall under the same rule for both competition and HPDE...so 2 yrs for SFI rated harness, and before expiration date on FIA rated ones (like stated above)
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Which I find quite ridiculous since my harnesses will be removed after each event. The only sunlight they will see will be when I'm on track...
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From: Jasma
Re: 2004 NASA CCR is out (John)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by John »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Which I find quite ridiculous since my harnesses will be removed after each event. The only sunlight they will see will be when I'm on track...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Rules are usually made to the lowest common denominator...
*shrug*
Treat is as a wear item...
Which I find quite ridiculous since my harnesses will be removed after each event. The only sunlight they will see will be when I'm on track...
</TD></TR></TABLE>Rules are usually made to the lowest common denominator...
*shrug*
Treat is as a wear item...
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From: Gainesville, FL
Re: 2004 NASA CCR is out (El Pollo Diablo)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
" All belts should meet either:
A) SFI Specification 16.1 and shall bear a dated
label of no more than two (2) years old. At least one date label is required on
belt sets.
Or
B) a restraint systems meeting FIA spec #8853/1985, 8853/98, or
D-###.T/98, including amendment 1/92 may be used. FIA certified belts have a
label that shows an expiration date. The belts cannot be used past December
31st of the year shown on the label. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Okay, I added a little emphasis to ask this question. It sounds like you can have either 2 year old SFI labled belts, or FIA spec #blablablah that are not past their expiration. How long is the FIA expiration? Are those belts also good for only 2 years, and what is the difference between these two lables as far as the belt goes?
" All belts should meet either:
A) SFI Specification 16.1 and shall bear a dated
label of no more than two (2) years old. At least one date label is required on
belt sets.
Or
B) a restraint systems meeting FIA spec #8853/1985, 8853/98, or
D-###.T/98, including amendment 1/92 may be used. FIA certified belts have a
label that shows an expiration date. The belts cannot be used past December
31st of the year shown on the label. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Okay, I added a little emphasis to ask this question. It sounds like you can have either 2 year old SFI labled belts, or FIA spec #blablablah that are not past their expiration. How long is the FIA expiration? Are those belts also good for only 2 years, and what is the difference between these two lables as far as the belt goes?
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From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Re: 2004 NASA CCR is out (El Pollo Diablo)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">-" The window net must
carry an SFI label indicating a date showing that the net is less than two (2) years old.</TD></TR></TABLE>
DOH! Add yet another thing to the list to buy!
Any1 know if SCCA has picked up this rule for 04?
carry an SFI label indicating a date showing that the net is less than two (2) years old.</TD></TR></TABLE>
DOH! Add yet another thing to the list to buy!
Any1 know if SCCA has picked up this rule for 04?
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From: Raleigh, NC
Re: 2004 NASA CCR is out (El Pollo Diablo)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
And for HPDE:
-all the ppl that bought the old harnesses for use in HPDE's....you may throw them out at this point...harnesses fall under the same rule for both competition and HPDE...so 2 yrs for SFI rated harness, and before expiration date on FIA rated ones (like stated above)
Matt</TD></TR></TABLE>
This - SUCKS.
I'd love to hear a good explaination why my 2-year old, garage-kept harnesses are illegal, yet my 12yr old stock seatbelts would be legal - for HPDE... I guess I should thank the American legal system.
And for HPDE:
-all the ppl that bought the old harnesses for use in HPDE's....you may throw them out at this point...harnesses fall under the same rule for both competition and HPDE...so 2 yrs for SFI rated harness, and before expiration date on FIA rated ones (like stated above)
Matt</TD></TR></TABLE>
This - SUCKS.
I'd love to hear a good explaination why my 2-year old, garage-kept harnesses are illegal, yet my 12yr old stock seatbelts would be legal - for HPDE... I guess I should thank the American legal system.
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From: Plotting My Revenge
Re: 2004 NASA CCR is out (JeffS)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I guess I should thank the American legal system. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Exactly.
Again. I HATE this rule. Nothing pisses me off like having to toss out perfectly good equipment.
But... I'm a person that takes care of my stuff. The rule isn't written for me. The rule is written for the guy with the beat up Spitfire that stores his car next to his tool shed. No top and no cover.
I hate it. But I understand it and will live with it. Dammit.
Window nets too... Crap.
Modified by Catch 22 at 2:53 PM 1/9/2004
I guess I should thank the American legal system.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Exactly.
Again. I HATE this rule. Nothing pisses me off like having to toss out perfectly good equipment.
But... I'm a person that takes care of my stuff. The rule isn't written for me. The rule is written for the guy with the beat up Spitfire that stores his car next to his tool shed. No top and no cover.
I hate it. But I understand it and will live with it. Dammit.
Window nets too... Crap.
Modified by Catch 22 at 2:53 PM 1/9/2004
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From: Jasma
Re: 2004 NASA CCR is out (JeffS)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I guess I should thank the American legal system. </TD></TR></TABLE>
-Yup, pretty much dead on...
I guess I should thank the American legal system. </TD></TR></TABLE>
-Yup, pretty much dead on...
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From: RVA FLA VIR
Re: 2004 NASA CCR is out (Catch 22)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nothing pisses me off like having to toss out perfectly good equipment.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Around here it's popular to sell older harnesses to autocrossers. If you can make $40 toward a new harness that's better than nothing huh?
Jon
Around here it's popular to sell older harnesses to autocrossers. If you can make $40 toward a new harness that's better than nothing huh?
Jon
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From: the rec center, usa
Re: 2004 NASA CCR is out (JeffS)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'd love to hear a good explaination why my 2-year old, garage-kept harnesses are illegal, yet my 12yr old stock seatbelts would be legal - for HPDE... </TD></TR></TABLE>
Remember, at least for NASA-VA intermediate & novice students, your instructor will tech your car. Personally, unless the harness is beat to crap, I'm not going to check the date. I guess the other instructors can pipe up with their opinions.
NASA-VA instructors tech their own cars so its a non-issue for them too.
I think this whole seatbelt age deal is what you call Covering Your A$$. If you wreck and die with a 3 year old harness your heirs & assigns wont be able to sue NASA (for that, anyway).
Remember, at least for NASA-VA intermediate & novice students, your instructor will tech your car. Personally, unless the harness is beat to crap, I'm not going to check the date. I guess the other instructors can pipe up with their opinions.
NASA-VA instructors tech their own cars so its a non-issue for them too.
I think this whole seatbelt age deal is what you call Covering Your A$$. If you wreck and die with a 3 year old harness your heirs & assigns wont be able to sue NASA (for that, anyway).
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From: formerly elgorey, VIRginia
Re: 2004 NASA CCR is out (El Pollo Diablo)
Are window nets really that much of a load bearing item?
The reasons for not wanting to have weakened harnesses are obvious, but isnt the point of a window net to keep the drivers limbs from flailing outside during a rollover/accident? Not to actually support the weight of the driver or restrain him/her?
correct me if Im wrong...
The reasons for not wanting to have weakened harnesses are obvious, but isnt the point of a window net to keep the drivers limbs from flailing outside during a rollover/accident? Not to actually support the weight of the driver or restrain him/her?
correct me if Im wrong...
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From: hybrids.jp
Re: 2004 NASA CCR is out (travis)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by travis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Okay, I added a little emphasis to ask this question. It sounds like you can have either 2 year old SFI labled belts, or FIA spec #blablablah that are not past their expiration. How long is the FIA expiration? Are those belts also good for only 2 years, and what is the difference between these two lables as far as the belt goes?</TD></TR></TABLE>
My Willans harness' are FIA. I bought them in 2002 and they expire in 2007. Seems like a better option to go with FIA approved equipment rather than replace every other year.
Okay, I added a little emphasis to ask this question. It sounds like you can have either 2 year old SFI labled belts, or FIA spec #blablablah that are not past their expiration. How long is the FIA expiration? Are those belts also good for only 2 years, and what is the difference between these two lables as far as the belt goes?</TD></TR></TABLE>
My Willans harness' are FIA. I bought them in 2002 and they expire in 2007. Seems like a better option to go with FIA approved equipment rather than replace every other year.
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From: Jasma
Re: 2004 NASA CCR is out (RyanR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RyanR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
My Willans harness' are FIA. I bought them in 2002 and they expire in 2007. Seems like a better option to go with FIA approved equipment rather than replace every other year.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes, I believe FIA rated harnesses are rated for 5yrs
My Willans harness' are FIA. I bought them in 2002 and they expire in 2007. Seems like a better option to go with FIA approved equipment rather than replace every other year.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes, I believe FIA rated harnesses are rated for 5yrs
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From: building H2 cars, NY
Re: 2004 NASA CCR is out (JoeLee)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JoeLee »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For HPDErs ... just use your OE belts under or over your expired harnesses ... </TD></TR></TABLE>
is that an acceptable thing to do??
is that an acceptable thing to do??
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From: Gainesville, FL
Re: 2004 NASA CCR is out (RyanR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RyanR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
My Willans harness' are FIA. I bought them in 2002 and they expire in 2007. Seems like a better option to go with FIA approved equipment rather than replace every other year.</TD></TR></TABLE>
What's the price difference between the two tags? If the FIA harnesses are less than 2.5x the the price, they're a better deal since they're legal for 2.5x as long.
-travis, who didn't think he'd be shopping for harnesses so soon
My Willans harness' are FIA. I bought them in 2002 and they expire in 2007. Seems like a better option to go with FIA approved equipment rather than replace every other year.</TD></TR></TABLE>
What's the price difference between the two tags? If the FIA harnesses are less than 2.5x the the price, they're a better deal since they're legal for 2.5x as long.
-travis, who didn't think he'd be shopping for harnesses so soon
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From: One by one, the penguins steal my sanity.
Re: 2004 NASA CCR is out (El Pollo Diablo)
I don't get it. Wouldn't this rule encourage HPDE students to skimp on safety gear? Hmm, harnesses every other year at $150+ each, no thanks. Well, then I can't use a cage/rollbar - no harness so I might smash my sexy noggin. Well, no cage, no harness, so no bucket seat either. Blah. Sometimes I'm glad I sold all my crap and went house hunting.
And is my OEM belt any more resistant to UV and grime than a FIA/SFI harness?
And is my OEM belt any more resistant to UV and grime than a FIA/SFI harness?
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From: Plotting My Revenge
Re: 2004 NASA CCR is out (RyanR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RyanR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My Willans was $250 for a six point version.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Or you can buy G Force camlocks ($110) every 2 to 3 seasons for about the same price.
No real bonus there.
Remember that the belts expire the December 31st after their dated month.
So... The belts I just got that are dated Jan 04 are good until December 06, or 3 race seasons.
You can manage this stuff a little more carefully if you pay close attention to belt dates when you purchase. If you buy a set dated December 03 right now you are basically costing yourself a whole year.
Or you can buy G Force camlocks ($110) every 2 to 3 seasons for about the same price.
No real bonus there.
Remember that the belts expire the December 31st after their dated month.
So... The belts I just got that are dated Jan 04 are good until December 06, or 3 race seasons.
You can manage this stuff a little more carefully if you pay close attention to belt dates when you purchase. If you buy a set dated December 03 right now you are basically costing yourself a whole year.
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From: kuidaore
Re: 2004 NASA CCR is out (El Pollo Diablo)
[Feverishly scouring the sparco usa website] If I recall Sparco 3" are FIA and good for 5 years?[Hoping?]
If not I'll need a new set for 2005
Adding yet another thing to the annual budgets.
If not I'll need a new set for 2005
Adding yet another thing to the annual budgets.
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From: kuidaore
Re: 2004 NASA CCR is out (Catch 22)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Or you can buy G Force camlocks ($110) every 2 to 3 seasons for about the same price.
No real bonus there.
Remember that the belts expire the December 31st after their dated month.
So... The belts I just got that are dated Jan 04 are good until December 06, or 3 race seasons.
You can manage this stuff a little more carefully if you pay close attention to belt dates when you purchase. If you buy a set dated December 03 right now you are basically costing yourself a whole year.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Makes sense, now you gotta shop for safety gear with use by dates akin to dairy products.
Or you can buy G Force camlocks ($110) every 2 to 3 seasons for about the same price.
No real bonus there.
Remember that the belts expire the December 31st after their dated month.
So... The belts I just got that are dated Jan 04 are good until December 06, or 3 race seasons.
You can manage this stuff a little more carefully if you pay close attention to belt dates when you purchase. If you buy a set dated December 03 right now you are basically costing yourself a whole year.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Makes sense, now you gotta shop for safety gear with use by dates akin to dairy products.
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From: Raleigh, NC
Re: 2004 NASA CCR is out (1GreyTeg)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1GreyTeg »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Makes sense, now you gotta shop for safety gear with use by dates akin to dairy products. </TD></TR></TABLE>
This has the potential to turn harnesses into a special order item. Shops without large volume can't afford to let a harness sit on the shelf and "spoil".
Makes sense, now you gotta shop for safety gear with use by dates akin to dairy products. </TD></TR></TABLE>
This has the potential to turn harnesses into a special order item. Shops without large volume can't afford to let a harness sit on the shelf and "spoil".
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From: Middlesex, NJ, USA
Re: 2004 NASA CCR is out (El Pollo Diablo)
Just to clarify things a bit:
Having a cage or rollbar in an HPDE car now REQUIRES Comp.-Spec seating. This means FIA-rated seats or seat back braces. The intention is to prevent necks from breaking on tubing if a seat folds backwards in a crash. I THINK that if you can demonstrate safe clearance regarding head-seat-cage in the car it will be ok. For instance - while my Miata is caged and I have an FIA driver seat I have an OE passenger seat. It is not braced, but it is right up against the rear bulkhead and CANNOT recline AT ALL. I cannot imaging it failing Tech - I know I would not fail it. This rule simply gives us a rule to apply to an UNSAFE configuration.
As far as harnesses - If you use Non-OE belts you have to meet Competition Specifications regarding date, specs and mounting. This does NOT mean you have to have a rollbar/cage. I am not going to address the potential safety issues of using harnesses without additional rollover protection. Basically this bans 4-point and 2-inch harnesses or out-of-date setups. HOWEVER - there is no rule against using your OE seatbelts as a safety system and an out-of-date or spec harness simply as a control item. We do not ban chest straps (which sued to be popular in autocross) so why would we ban a harness used ONLY to hold you in place while driving that is NOT used as a safety system. Now, I am not sure this is going to be enforceable - grid has enough to do already without needing to know which guys in harnesses need to have OE belts on as well - so bad harness setups might end up universally banned. FWIW, last year at many events I had HPDE drivers wear OE belts because I did not approve of their harness configurations. I saw more unsafe belts and especially mounts than I saw good ones in HPDE.
Our sport is neither inexpensive nor particuarly safe - the new rulings are trying to make it safer at a minimal additional expense in the grand scheme of things? Like they said already - be prudent in what you buy!
One last thing - the same harness rules are in effect with the SCCA.
Having a cage or rollbar in an HPDE car now REQUIRES Comp.-Spec seating. This means FIA-rated seats or seat back braces. The intention is to prevent necks from breaking on tubing if a seat folds backwards in a crash. I THINK that if you can demonstrate safe clearance regarding head-seat-cage in the car it will be ok. For instance - while my Miata is caged and I have an FIA driver seat I have an OE passenger seat. It is not braced, but it is right up against the rear bulkhead and CANNOT recline AT ALL. I cannot imaging it failing Tech - I know I would not fail it. This rule simply gives us a rule to apply to an UNSAFE configuration.
As far as harnesses - If you use Non-OE belts you have to meet Competition Specifications regarding date, specs and mounting. This does NOT mean you have to have a rollbar/cage. I am not going to address the potential safety issues of using harnesses without additional rollover protection. Basically this bans 4-point and 2-inch harnesses or out-of-date setups. HOWEVER - there is no rule against using your OE seatbelts as a safety system and an out-of-date or spec harness simply as a control item. We do not ban chest straps (which sued to be popular in autocross) so why would we ban a harness used ONLY to hold you in place while driving that is NOT used as a safety system. Now, I am not sure this is going to be enforceable - grid has enough to do already without needing to know which guys in harnesses need to have OE belts on as well - so bad harness setups might end up universally banned. FWIW, last year at many events I had HPDE drivers wear OE belts because I did not approve of their harness configurations. I saw more unsafe belts and especially mounts than I saw good ones in HPDE.
Our sport is neither inexpensive nor particuarly safe - the new rulings are trying to make it safer at a minimal additional expense in the grand scheme of things? Like they said already - be prudent in what you buy!
One last thing - the same harness rules are in effect with the SCCA.
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From: Arlington, NoVA, USA
Re: 2004 NASA CCR is out (JoeLee)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JoeLee »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Our sport is neither inexpensive nor particuarly safe - the new rulings are trying to make it safer at a minimal additional expense in the grand scheme of things? Like they said already - be prudent in what you buy!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'd rather simply sign a waiver.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'd rather simply sign a waiver.