Building an 89 Civic Si for STS. Installed the ubiquitous Koni yellows with Koni sleeves. They are going back to Koni to get cut and revalved after the AZ Tour.

How low are folks running their ride heights for these cars? What's the limiting factor (other than shock travel, which can be fixed)? Does the suspension get whacky if you go too low (roll/bump steer)?

Thanks!

--Andy

PS: If you quote a ride height for your car, do so from the center of the wheel to the fender lip to eliminate differences in tire diameter.

 

IMO, a better way to measure ride height is from the ground to the jacking points.

 

RJ, the distance to the jacking point can be different on the same suspension if you switch to smaller or larger tires. Measuring from the wheel center is more consistent, just not as easy.

Andy, I dont have an answer, but welcome to Honda-Tech!

 

The rules for your event will govern the ride height limitation. As an example-Improved Touring has a ride height minimum of 5" measured to the lowest point on the rocker panels. Many of us just use the jacking points because it is a known reference. Not only that-but wheels and tires for IT are controlled. In the case of the CRX Si (88-91) we are limited to a 14" diameter wheel. Other cars will have a "spec line" that they must adhere to. Autocross rules are different as are those for NASA events.
Many folks do their measuring to the centerline of the wheel or go from the ground (flat level surface of course) up to the highest point on the wheel arch/lip.
Can you go too low-sure. The effects can be a severely limited amount of suspension travel even with shortened shocks.
That's my 2 cents.

 

I was just about to go out to the garage and measure my car for you but remembered I put some different wheels on the back earlier today for measurement purposes. I'll get my numbers tommorow when I put back on my regular wheels.

 

Thanks for the input, JC. As it turns out, there is no limit in STS (autocross). That's why I asked what folks were doing now. Just to get a ballpark. I was especially curious to see if anyone had done the alignment rack work to see plot the ride height/toe change curve. I can make the shocks work to give whatever travel I want. The only other limiting factor I can see is the top of the inside fender well which I cannot legally alter for STS.

--Andy

 

Ryan,

If you measure from wheel center to fender lip it doesn't matter what wheels are on the car. But, then, you knew that...!!

--Andy

 

Andy:
We are in different events. However, the suspension on your car is very similar to our ITA CRX. If you do NOT use any Camber correction it is possible to not have any issues with the upper control arm contacting the inner fender. We are allowed to "beat" on the area at the front edge at the balljoint mounting point. The other thing I mentioned still is an issue and that would be the ball joint area rising too high in the tower and contacting -if you are too low. You might be able to reduce the possibility by using really stiff springs or running on the bumpstops (which is not a good idea either). I need to mention that without Camber correction the control arms were very close to the inner fender lip-after correction the arm stopped going up until the area was massaged.
The best thing you can do is to test the amount of travel still available after you lower the car. Also, there will be a change in both Caster and Toe-in in addition to Camber. Another thing is tire sizing and wheel offset.
Last thing here-if you plan to drive to an event I would be inclined to stay well over 4" to protect the underside of the car.

 

ok. I didn't measure from wheel center to fender because I was too lazy to take the time. Maybe next time.

From ground to jack points: 4.1"F/4.25"R
From ground to fender lip: 22.75"F/22.5"R

I feel I am fine for suspension travel as I cut the brake brackets off the front shocks to give me more travel. Only problem I'm having right now is I'm so low my sidepipe exhaust doesn't have any clearance. Guess I'm going to have to work on design #3 for somethign new.

 

wow ryan, ur lower than me. last i measured with the same wheel/tire combo as you i was 4.5f/r. guess i can go a tad bit lower. ill have to wait till it stops snowing tho

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lo-Buck EF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">wow ryan, ur lower than me. last i measured with the same wheel/tire combo as you i was 4.5f/r. guess i can go a tad bit lower. ill have to wait till it stops snowing tho</TD></TR></TABLE>

And I might even go lower. I haven't done any testing since I lowered the rear so I might go lower on either one of the ends or both

No snow down here, actually in the high 60's at night I think. Washed the car tongith and took it for a drive.

 

nice. do u think u can get lower w/o running into upper control arm issues? (ie-hitting the inner fender) im almost as low as i can go in the front on my coilovers. i to was thinkin of going lower. but i dont think i will. just get it aligned and maybe corner weighted and call it a day
-spenc on snow tires


Modified by Lo-Buck EF at 12:05 AM 1/4/2004

 

11 3/4"f
12" R
measurements on my car from hub center to fender lip

andy hollis-the only thing that yu run into when going as low as ryan and i are is you will most likely have to loose the lip on the inside of the rear fender depending on the offset wheel you use. on my +43's i had to 'loose' the lip. this a good thing because theres a rubber cover ont he lip that holds dirt and water and promotes rust.

 

Wow! Do you still plan to campaign the Miata?? Thanks for joining the board!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lo-Buck EF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">11 3/4"f
12" R
measurements on my car from hub center to fender lip

andy hollis-the only thing that yu run into when going as low as ryan and i are is you will most likely have to loose the lip on the inside of the rear fender depending on the offset wheel you use. on my +43's i had to 'loose' the lip. this a good thing because theres a rubber cover ont he lip that holds dirt and water and promotes rust. </TD></TR></TABLE>

rolling the fenders and getting rid of those fender trim things was one of the first things I did as from my last STS car it was neccesary. I'm using 43 offset wheels right now too but I'm probably going to get a set of 2-3mm spacers and try them out. I can change settings as often as I like since I work at a honda dealer part time when not in school so I can do my own alignments as often as I like.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lo-Buck EF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">nice. do u think u can get lower w/o running into upper control arm issues? (ie-hitting the inner fender) im almost as low as i can go in the front on my coilovers. i to was thinkin of going lower. but i dont think i will. just get it aligned and maybe corner weighted and call it a day
-spenc on snow tires


Modified by Lo-Buck EF at 12:05 AM 1/4/2004</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not sure how close to the upper control arms I am. I haven't thought about a way to find that out and I haven't heard any loud noises that would indicated it or any instant understeer if the front suspension travel had fully compressed to its limits. I'll lift the car up tommorow and take a look if I get a chance.

 

i was thinkin of spacin the fronts out just to get a wider track. dunno if im gonna do it yet tho. as for the uca, i guess as long as u have some bump stop, ull be ok. i didnt hit it with my old sus (400/300 and illuminas) and i was low and driving through manhatten to some events. but it is something to consider.

-spenc

 

12" F - 12" R (exactly 2" lower than the stock springs)

running 205/50-15 Azenis w/ no rubbing issues with the fender lips rolled in.

my current alignment figures with no camber plates etc:

left front right front
camber -2.58 -1.84
toe .05 .04
caster 3.19 3.03

left rear right rear
camber -1.58 -1.02
toe .05 .04

front rear
total toe .09" .09"
set back .19"
thrust angle .02
camber diff -.74 -.56
caster diff .16


this was done at the local tire shop with mostly street in mind an probably isn't optimal, in fact, if someone wants to help me out w/ sugestions, they're welcome to.

 

Worried myself stupid the first time on track with the CRX. We use AR/Motegi MR12's in a 14x6 +35 offset. The front is fine but the rear had 1/4" at most without rolling the lips. YES they are rolled now. Springs are 400f/500r and NO rub was encountered with the 195/60R14 Azenis. Again I will note we did do Camber correction and are at the outer limit of the stock spec.
The mention of Camber here is important and there are several thoughts on it. Some say run -2.5 on all 4 corners and others vary from there up or down. Our car is very predictable. Might I suggest that you revist the -2.5 and -1.84 as they are fairly far apart. from each other for both a daily driver and HPDE/autocross car. The number change as you cornerweight the car. One other thing I have learned is that Caster should be as close as possible from side to side. Our Prelude is NOT inspec and handles a bit better than stock (3.8 degrees versus 2.8 max).
Just my 2 cents

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jc836 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Might I suggest that you revist the -2.5 and -1.84 as they are fairly far apart. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm pretty sure the alignment was checked without any weight in the driver's seat... Is the -2.5 going to accually get worse with my 280lb body in there?

Didn't mean to thread jack.... sorry about that.

 

Only one way to know for sure. Put the car on the alignment machine and climb in. Have the tech measure the ride height and also print out the data-then you will know for sure.

 

There is no magic ride height, but there is a good acceptable range. The best way to find out what you like is to just do some testing and go from there. I've found that different shock and spring combos will dictate how the car works best and at what ride height.

And yes, there is a such thing as to low, because no matter how short your shocks are, you'll still run out of suspension travel (read: contacting the upper fender wells). And on bumpy surfaces, the car just won't work like it should.

Basically, no matter what info you get off the net, you'll still need to tweak. I think Shenefield's guideline is good, but there are things that I do differently and some things that I think should be done differently. Now if only I were a better driver...

 

Looks like I'm about a half-inch higher than you guys. Total eyeball "looks right" SWAG when I first put the car together. I'll probably wait to go any lower until after cutting the shocks.

As for my Miata, yes, I still plan to develop and race that car. The Civic is for Ann (wife) to race, though I'll run it a bit at first to get it dialed in. She has neck problems and the CSP Miata throws her around too much. The Civic allows her to run a real race seat and full harness, and its on street tires. So, less G's, less harsh. And we've got lots of history in CRX's and Civics. Her first Nat'l championship was in an 87 Civic Si. And we both got titles in 88 CRXs for a number of years in DS and ES. Wrenching on this thing has been like "old home week".

--Andy

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Andy Hollis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">She has neck problems and the CSP Miata throws her around too much. The Civic allows her to run a real race seat and full harness, and its on street tires. So, less G's, less harsh.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

hope you aren't expecting the car to be nice and comfortable. My civic is still pretty harsh even in full sts trim.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ryan12321 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

hope you aren't expecting the car to be nice and comfortable. My civic is still pretty harsh even in full sts trim.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks. I know what to expect. I've driven Gerry Terronova's car in STS trim. The harshness I'm talking about is not so much in the suspension, but in the ability of the car to transition hard. My Miata will pull ridiculous G numbers on those big, fat Hoosiers. Way more than you'll ever get on even a 225 Falken.

--Andy





Modified by Andy Hollis at 11:09 PM 1/4/2004