I first posted this information in the Type-R forum...but after a week I came to the realization that it would have been good to have posted it in the All Motor forum too...

On December 30th, 2003 the United States Patent office will issue patent number of D484,513 for the HyTech Honda headers.

I haven't seen the patent papers as of yet, however I've known that it was approved for the last 5 months, John at HyTech has been patiently waiting for the official paperwork to arrive.

The patent was a design patent, here is what the USPTO calls a design:

Definition of a Design
A design consists of the visual ornamental characteristics embodied in, or applied to, an article of manufacture. Since a design is manifested in appearance, the subject matter of a design patent application may relate to the configuration <u>or</u> shape of an article, to the surface ornamentation applied to an article, <u>or</u> to the combination of configuration and surface ornamentation. A design for surface ornamentation is inseparable from the article to which it is applied and cannot exist alone. It must be a definite pattern of surface ornamentation, applied to an article of manufacture.

In general terms, a “utility patent” protects the way an article is used and works (35 U.S.C. 101), while a "design patent" protects the way an article looks (35 U.S.C. 171).

2004 shall provide a rather intersting year...

Austin

 

Cool, thanks for posting it on here, I'm not one for the Type-R forum anymore(alot guys hate us "hatchcraps", lol)

-Bert

 

just makes me wonder, how can u define copyright violation...

I mean, sure you cant copy it exact... but what about slightly?

How far do the rules go?

 

soooo....
I can't sell copies of the hytech header anymore? I don't think that will stop reverse engineering - it'll always exist. Just change a few little things then its a totally different ball game.

 

bump for an awesome company.... .... ...

 

heheh shape the collector with the ends squared, or with different designed flanges.. and just say the shape of the flange takes away the heat from the pipes from a thermo-transfer.. or put thinner or thicker pipe...

any peice of the header that is different can be exempt.

heck duplicate the header, but put the bung in the middle of the header still won't be the same "DESIGN" ....

this is just a argument to make enemies....

 

That is what we like to see

 

"A design patent protects only the ornamental appearance of an article, and not its structure or utilitarian features . If a design is utilitarian in nature as well as ornamental (such as computer mouse design which is more comfortable to use), a design patent will not protect the design. Such combination inventions (both ornamental and utilitarian) can only be protected by a utility patent . "

"Note, however, that if the allegedly "aesthetic" nature of a feature is in fact dictated by utilitarian motives (such as the sleekness of certain automobile parts designed to cut down wind resistance or the design of a honda header ), then those features are protectable only by a utility patent."

john does not have a utility patent


http://www.bitlaw.com/patent/design.html

in other words
only john's exact header is protected by this design patent, NOT b-series header and NOT the tri-y design

 

With all due respect, I think this whole thing is a cheap shot at trying to take over the market. I believe every header fabricator has respectively stayed away from the reversion chamber design that John has incorporated into his header design. To even say that he was the creator of the reversion chamber would be false. **** even the military was using the reversion chamber concept back in the 50's. John is very smart, talented, and well respected in the industry, but I do think that sending people letters with threats to those who have simply made a header for a four cylinder motor is a little overboard. Since when was John the inventor of the "header?" Don't get me wrong, his headers are top notch and speak for themselves. If you believe in your product then you shouldn't worry because your supporters will always be there and purchase your products. You might as well go after DC , Comptech, and why stop there. Try Honda Motor Company as well!! Just be careful who's toes u step on today because they may be connected to the *** you kiss tomorrow. Have a nice day.

 

The patent has been posted on the US Patent site.

Congrats to HyTech.

The patent is of the ITR header design however there is no mention of Honda or Acura so that covers him on other applications. The design also doesn't consist of Jim Fueling's anti reversion chambers (Jim holds that patent).

This was a good move on HyTech's part since it covers them against the few companies that copied his configuration, i.e. CompTech and Weapon R. Out of those two I'd guess CompTech would be the big seller.

Edit - Deleted ref to not being able to find the CompTech Race header on the CompTech USA site. Bert-O provides the link below.


Modified by SMSP at 7:28 AM 12/30/2003

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SMSP &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The patent has been posted on the US Patent site.

Congrats to HyTech.

The patent is of the ITR header design however there is no mention of Honda or Acura so that covers him on other applications. The design also doesn't consist of Jim Fueling's anti reversion chambers (Jim holds that patent).

This was a good move on HyTech's part since it covers them against the few companies that copied his configuration, i.e. CompTech and Weapon R. Out of those two I'd guess CompTech would be the big seller. From looking on the CompTechUSA site I can't seem to find their race header anymore, so maybe the patent is working already or I just can't locate the link to it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hey, check out these pics below and tell me how do you see its a copied of the Hytech vs the Comptech Race. Yes, the Weapon R is somewhat the same minus the end of the collector.

From left to right

DTR, Hytech, Comptech's Race, WeaponR



Also, it still listed on the Comptech site, its on the very top page, here's a link,

http://solar.innercite.com/com....html

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BERT-O &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Hey, check out these pics below and tell me how do you see its a copied of the Hytech vs the Comptech Race. Yes, the Weapon R is somewhat the same minus the end of the collector.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

What? Besides the fact that the pairing is the same, the tube diameters are the same, the tube paths are the same, the tube lengths are the same, oh and they had Austin's car (with the Hytech set up on it) for what 2 weeks when they developed their header.

BERT-O, I realize that you sell their products and must cover your butt but that boat is sinking.....jump off now.

I've had issues with some of HyTech's business practices in the past and both our companies have spared many times but when something is as black and white as this, one has to speak up.

 

Just wondering on your take on that. Yes, we sell their product due to many reasons (quality, workmanship and availablity) but at the same time, I couldn't say what Comptech did on how they came up with their new design for the race version.

I can't swim so I'm not going to jump off my boat since I don't want to die, lol.

Everyone will have issues with all type of business, if there wasn't, hell whats the whole point. But I was very curious on your take on this. Thanks for the time,

-Bert

 

Do we really have to bring up the who copied who crap again?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vtecvoodoo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do we really have to bring up the who copied who crap again? </TD></TR></TABLE>

No we don't...in the multi-billion dollar industry of acura race headers I could care less.
Does mugen have a "design patent" on their muffler?? the one John copied the design on? Do I really care? Could John patent the only real thing his headers have that no one elses have ie: anti-reversion chambers??? NO.
What did he patent? The tube layout? It's 4 damn tubes....the collector diameter? 2.5", like everyone does now. He'll probably get super rich now.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SMSP &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

What? Besides the fact that the pairing is the same, the tube diameters are the same, the tube paths are the same, the tube lengths are the same, oh and they had Austin's car (with the Hytech set up on it) for what 2 weeks when they developed their header.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Really? Unless the diameter is the same, which I can't measure by eye, it looks like the only statement you're correct on would be the pairing. How are the tube lengths identical in either "copy" if the headers are shorter? Even the tube paths seem deviated from the mighty Hytech. I'll be impressed when someone CADs thses bad boys out and lays both sets over and they line up. Until then...whoop de do, the orientation is the same. Have you ever seen two headers with the same layout before? I'm pretty new to this scene but I've only seen 3 or 4 different working header designs on the market.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SMSP &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BERT-O, I realize that you sell their products and must cover your butt but that boat is sinking.....jump off now.</TD></TR></TABLE>

BERT-O there is no boat, it's just a header...that's it. How many Race headers do you sell? You rich yet? Nope, you could clear out all your stock and sell Hytech ones instead, would you be rich then....nope. I'm guessing this part isn't in your top 20 sellers is it?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SMSP &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've had issues with some of HyTech's business practices in the past and both our companies have spared many times but when something is as black and white as this, one has to speak up.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Black and white? Like I said, I'm not the expert...but all 4 headers look a little different, will the design patent eliminate either of the other headers? If they deviated a little...are they still in trouble? 2004 will be an interesting year, Austin's right. I don't think it'll have much to do with Hytech headers, but I'd like to see how much fuss he raises with his new paperwork....we'll see.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by n1ek &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Really? Unless the diameter is the same, which I can't measure by eye, it looks like the only statement you're correct on would be the pairing. How are the tube lengths identical in either "copy" if the headers are shorter? Even the tube paths seem deviated from the mighty Hytech. I'll be impressed when someone CADs thses bad boys out and lays both sets over and they line up. Until then...whoop de do, the orientation is the same. Have you ever seen two headers with the same layout before? I'm pretty new to this scene but I've only seen 3 or 4 different working header designs on the market.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well the last thing I want to be is a spokesman for HyTech. Austin and Lip have that cornered. So this will probably be my last response to this thread, just doing it as a professional courtesy, believe me I won't make a habit of it.

The diameters were measured from both headers and posted here on H-T. They were the same. The 1-2 paths are slightly different but only to allow room for the AR cones...no biggie. The comptech collector looks like it ends sooner but look at the where the manifold flanges are and that's why the collector locations look different.

As for CAD drawings, I do it that way, not sure about anyone else.

BTW, patents like this are use alot for bike pipes to capture the "look" and to protect the people that did the leg work.

 

glad to hear it finally went throguh. This is a good thing.

Greg

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SMSP &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Well the last thing I want to be is a spokesman for HyTech. Austin and Lip have that cornered. So this will probably be my last response to this thread, just doing it as a professional courtesy, believe me I won't make a habit of it.

The diameters were measured from both headers and posted here on H-T. They were the same. The 1-2 paths are slightly different but only to allow room for the AR cones...no biggie. The comptech collector looks like it ends sooner but look at the where the manifold flanges are and that's why the collector locations look different.

As for CAD drawings, I do it that way, not sure about anyone else.

BTW, patents like this are use alot for bike pipes to capture the "look" and to protect the people that did the leg work.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The 1-2 paths are different, but all seem to follow a similar path. Did you notice even the mugen ITR race header follows the same path? I highly doubt this is a Hytech original design. It would be nice to measure the overall length instead of speculate from a picture, but I do notice the manifold flange location now that you mention it.
I'm glad people can patent things like this...but like i said, John's only original idea on that header is not his own. I'm anxious to read the patent for this header...is there a link to it online yet?
And Dave, hopefully you'll at least get a Christmas card next year from Hytech for your "professional courtesy"

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SMSP &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Well the last thing I want to be is a spokesman for HyTech. Austin and Lip have that cornered

BTW, patents like this are use alot for bike pipes to capture the "look" and to protect the people that did the leg work.</TD></TR></TABLE>

hey now...i never even replied to these threads. but since you mentioned it....Congrats John on the long awaited Patent.

 

HyTech aren't going to be ******** to DTR, SMSP, etc are they?

 

Now that he had to pay the expensive cost of getting the patent, look for prices to rise haha. From now on all headers will be made from square tubing!! (well until someone patents that too haha) Welcome tot he world of capitalism. Well I guess you can always move to China, work for the government, and design your own header and not have to worry about anyone trying to make headers. Sounds like a plan. Take care. Once again this was fun.

 

Seeing that I personally know and worked with patent lawyer as with many other lawyers, John has strong case against many companies. What’s interesting is seeing people misquote legal information or patent information they find online without knowing anything about patents in general.

I would assume that John got a design patent for a reason (price not being a factor since it easily could have cost Hytech around $6-15,000 to obtain it after legal fees). A design patent will be a lot easier to enforce since it’s primarily about looks, which is easy for a judge/attorney or untrained eye to distinguish vs. using a utility patent which takes a lot more time to enforce since its about function, which takes experts to distinguish.

Since this is a design patent, John just has to find headers that resemble or are similar to his design, then send legal papers to that company, followed by contacting a qualified court, then a judge looks over the evidence and rules his judgment. Basically if you can mistake another companies header for a Hytech header, then legal action can be taken for the most part. I would also assume that in the patent drawings, John has included a header, which should cover all aspects and angels for all types of uses since the patent is for a general design (not a specific design or specific to a model or class the item belongs in). Basically that would entail if a company was selling a unit (say a coat hanger, wall ornament, statue, etc... even another header) similar in design to Johns header as shown in the patent drawings, then Hytech can legally go after that company even though it is or isn’t intended for the same purpose as Johns header. This is why a Design Patent can be better then a Utility Patent. Looks not function means everything!

Personally I think its about time companies start doing what John has done. This import industry has been flooded with knock-offs, underselling, overnight/overseas knock-offs, illegal businesses, and people taking credit for others hard work. Hytech was one of the first in the import-aftermarket business and rightfully will be one of the last. It’s about time all these knock off companies are taken out or are dealt a huge set back. I just hope that John doesn't only focus on the large companies, but also get the smaller ones. I'm sick of people making the exact copy or a similar copy of his and others stuff for slightly less in cost. I'm sure other companies who have had similar events happened to them will agree with John actions and follow.

1 major step back for thieves, 1 major step forward for professionalism in the import industry.
Anyway, we’ll see soon enough which companies back off from Hytech’s design and which companies are taken out legally by stupidity. Like Omniman stated, “get your lawyers ready and your pocket books open.”

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rboosted717 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Basically that would entail if a company was selling a unit (say a coat hanger, wall ornament, statue, etc... even another header) similar in design to Johns header as shown in the patent drawings, then Hytech can legally go after that company even though it is or isnÂ’t intended for the same purpose as Johns header. This is why a Design Patent can be better then a Utility Patent. Looks not function means everything!

</TD></TR></TABLE>

But it's not like John was the original designer of those tube paths or anything.
So I doubt all the credit should go to him. Either way I'm anxious to see what come of this....what if some companies have to stop making that header???
Why, they could stand to lose tens of hundreds of dollars per month. Hahahaha....Weapon R makes a higher percentage profit on intakes than those headers, with that, and the fact that the probably sell 3 or so a month I'm sure they won't be too crushed when the get a cease and desist letter. What country are Weapon R headers made in anyways? Are the subject to US patents?

 

so what about all the look a like rims?