how would a stock b20 fair with a b16 head on it, i mean, the bottom end would need to be able to turn 8200 to optimize the use of the head right? is this possible? if not what to do to make it turn in the 8's

 

My friend has a stock bottom end B20 with a b16 head and jun stage 3's. He revs it to 9K RPM at the track, it hasn't blown up yet.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybrid honda &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My friend has a stock bottom end B20 with a b16 head and jun stage 3's. He revs it to 9K RPM at the track, it hasn't blown up yet.</TD></TR></TABLE>

"Yet" being the key word. Your friend is very lucky. The redline on the B20 is probably between 6600 and 7000...taking it 9k is way past what it was designed to do.

 

On stock sleeves and rods, it should not go upwards of 8k, even though many people do, and many people reep the consequences as well.

If properly built, the motor can last longer in the higher revvs.

 

i have a b20 with a b16a head on it, new water pump, new oil pump, arp head studs, and i dont rev my motor that high it maybe sees above 7200 once a week mine has about 8000 miles on it and its still going strong, when we first built it i was running way to lean and i have low compression in 1 cylinder...but other than that it runs good

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MolecularIntegra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

"Yet" being the key word. Your friend is very lucky. The redline on the B20 is probably between 6600 and 7000...taking it 9k is way past what it was designed to do.</TD></TR></TABLE>


Yup, you are right, it will blow up eventually. But, it's a trailer queen and it's not a daily driver. Car runs high 12's.

Some people say, if properly built it can rev to 8K and still be reliable and other people say it's not a good idea to rev that high. If it was me I would tap the block for oil squirters, throw a b16 head and would not rev past 8K or so.

Actually, if was me I would bore out my b16 to 84mm, throw in a b17 crank and have 1794cc's.

 

once again, we run into people with Hearsay and no first hand experience, just "rumors" and what it "wasnt designed to do".

my old setup:
bone stock b16a2 head
bone stock b20b bottom end

8400rpm+ daily and no problems

mike

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MikeMAN &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">once again, we run into people with Hearsay and no first hand experience, just "rumors" and what it "wasnt designed to do".

my old setup:
bone stock b16a2 head
bone stock b20b bottom end

8400rpm+ daily and no problems

mike</TD></TR></TABLE>
very true, i just did about 15+ passes at the track this weekend! drove the car home(60 miles, while going at it with another car) saturday night. drove the car up to the track on sunday morning, raced and drove back(60 miles again) without any problems. the motor sees 8K rpms, only because i have gsr cams(i loose power at 7.2-7.5K rpms) on the b16 head! mind you, this motor has been doing this for two years my .02c

 

Chad took his to 8500rpm daily....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by smokey2.0 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
very true, i just did about 15+ passes at the track this weekend! drove the car home(60 miles, while going at it with another car) saturday night. drove the car up to the track on sunday morning, raced and drove back(60 miles again) without any problems. the motor sees 8K rpms, only because i have gsr cams(i loose power at 7.2-7.5K rpms) on the b16 head! mind you, this motor has been doing this for two years my .02c</TD></TR></TABLE>

yup, i believe we posted in the same thread about this a while ago (summer time) and my b20vtec (while i had it) was perfectly reliable and VERY VERY fun for all 6 months that i had it!

mike

 

stock sleeved/rod B20 has more reliability issues than a 84mm b18c or resleeved b20...thats just common fact. Not saying every single motor will poop out after you touch 8000 rpms, just saying that the risk of bad things happening increases drastically with a b20 the higher you take it. Not like a B18 where the r/s is reasonable enough to ensure 'safe' passage to 9k. I know someone still running around with his stock b20 bottom end and its been over 2 years, and I know people who have had rods snap after 5k miles...its all a matter of luck IMO.

 

guess it's my turn to chime in....

STOCK B20 bottom
GSR head
JUN III cams
9k pulls at the track and no issues! we ran this for a season. I also drove the car on the streets occasionally with no issues. I will say this- without using ARP rod bolts, I am lucky to be able to still drive the motor. Can you guess what's going in the motor when it gets it's rebuild?

You can't sustain the high RPM in a B20 unless you build the bottom end... sleeving is a waste of money in this block- destroke it with a GSR crank and rods, bump the compression and you'll be good to go. This is first hand experience for you. RS has little to do with Honda motors- for what any one on this board uses them for. It's all about engineering and how your tolerances are when you put the block together. TS ratio is important if you are planning on sustaining the revolutions of the motor for a long period of time- hence the B16A/B RS ratio. There are also other things that have to be taken into consideration as well. If you just throw a motor together- regardless of what it is- it will have a short life span. If you race the motor, it will have a shorter life span. You guys that race on the weekends and race around town.. and then your car blows up and you wonder why....

 

I hit 8500 all the time and it sees that often when I am autocrossing with no prob I do have the ARP rod bolts and head studs and the motor is stroked to a 2.2ltr

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92TypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">stock sleeved/rod B20 has more reliability issues than a 84mm b18c or resleeved b20...thats just common fact. Not saying every single motor will poop out after you touch 8000 rpms, just saying that the risk of bad things happening increases drastically with a b20 the higher you take it. Not like a B18 where the r/s is reasonable enough to ensure 'safe' passage to 9k. I know someone still running around with his stock b20 bottom end and its been over 2 years, and I know people who have had rods snap after 5k miles...its all a matter of luck IMO.</TD></TR></TABLE>

obviously stock sleeved blocks are gunna have more issues but R/S ratio means JACK when ur at the redline for like 1 second or less..it means more when you are sustaining high revs for a long period of time..

i dont think its a luck thing, i think its a "built properly" thing

mike

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MikeMAN &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

obviously stock sleeved blocks are gunna have more issues but R/S ratio means JACK when ur at the redline for like 1 second or less..it means more when you are sustaining high revs for a long period of time..

i dont think its a luck thing, i think its a "built properly" thing

mike</TD></TR></TABLE>

That is true..I guess our perspectives on how we drive our honda is different...my car sees 75% of its life in lapping days and HPDE's...not dragging...where high rpm reliability means the difference between a complete lap and a large parts bill.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92TypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

That is true..I guess our perspectives on how we drive our honda is different...my car sees 75% of its life in lapping days and HPDE's...not dragging...where high rpm reliability means the difference between a complete lap and a large parts bill.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i suspect the bottom end on a b20b is exactly the same as a b18c/b16a as in how well they're built (except the sleeves). i mean seriously what could be all that different? lower quality parts? the only thing is the r/s ratio and that is a bunch of crap.

anyone could make a complete b20b longblock rev to 9k with the right headwork (cams, springs, everything)

the bottom end is spinng around with rods and pistons connected to it just like a b18c, unless they're made of lower quality parts... uh whats the difference

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by random-strike &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
the bottom end is spinng around with rods and pistons connected to it just like a b18c, unless they're made of lower quality parts... uh whats the difference</TD></TR></TABLE>

For me, my ITR motor has a lower friction coefficient because of the molybdenum coating...not a huge difference, but definately reduces heat in the upper rpms. Crank has counterbalances, although heavier, it is more stable...but the crank is not a weak point in any B-series bottom end...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by random-strike &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the r/s ratio and that is a bunch of crap. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I beg to differ. Piston speed has a huge effect on how reliable the rotational assembly is. I am not saying that the B20Z has an R/S unworthy of high rpms, a proper build with strong rods and better sleeves will make a bulletproof n/a bottom end...but there IS validity in it, it does affect the load on the cylinder walls and especially the rods. Although quoted many times i'm sure, if a longer stroke was safe and reliable, honda would have made it happen...for example with the '04 s2k, honda reduced how high the motor revved because the piston speeds were already rediculous at 9k with the original F20C, and with the longer stroke, they would have been under extremely dangerous loads. Although I'm sure the new F20C 2.2L can manage 9k passes without modification, the risk is still higher, and honda does not want an unreliable motor with their on it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92TypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

For me, my ITR motor has a lower friction coefficient because of the molybdenum coating...not a huge difference, but definately reduces heat in the upper rpms. Crank has counterbalances, although heavier, it is more stable...but the crank is not a weak point in any B-series bottom end...

I beg to differ. Piston speed has a huge effect on how reliable the rotational assembly is. I am not saying that the B20Z has an R/S unworthy of high rpms, a proper build with strong rods and better sleeves will make a bulletproof n/a bottom end...but there IS validity in it, it does affect the load on the cylinder walls and especially the rods. Although quoted many times i'm sure, if a longer stroke was safe and reliable, honda would have made it happen...for example with the '04 s2k, honda reduced how high the motor revved because the piston speeds were already rediculous at 9k with the original F20C, and with the longer stroke, they would have been under extremely dangerous loads. Although I'm sure the new F20C 2.2L can manage 9k passes without modification, the risk is still higher, and honda does not want an unreliable motor with their on it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

are we talking about a race car that will only see 7-9k rpms the entire time its running? a street car that goes to the track sometimes will not have any problems with a "bad" r/s ratio. i suspect that most problems with ls/vtec cr/vtec are lack of oil

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92TypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Although quoted many times i'm sure, if a longer stroke was safe and reliable, honda would have made it happen...</TD></TR></TABLE>

I hear this statement a lot, however Im guessing its due to streamlining manufacturing costs....

The whole "if this was good, honda would have done it..etc" things are gettin' kinda annoying...

its like saying "If turbocharging was good, honda would have made all their engines that way"...a very generalized and open-ended statement

mike

 

I'm in this kind of situation soon as I have B20VTEC with stock sleeves bored to 85 mm. with 12:1 Wiseco slugs and Probe rods. So far I'm running with a stock B16A head so there is reason to go past 8k. Well the head will be completly build in the time coming so I'm wondering if I can rev it to 9k for the upcoming drag racing season? As the valvetrain and rods can handle it I'm only worried about the sleeves.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 365.2422 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how would a stock b20 fair with a b16 head on it, i mean, the bottom end would need to be able to turn 8200 to optimize the use of the head right? is this possible? if not what to do to make it turn in the 8's</TD></TR></TABLE>

At high rpms ls(b20) rod bolt tend to stretch resulting in spun bearings or even throughing the rod cap off the rod.
ARP rod bolts should do the trick. Just make sure the machine shop resizes the big end of the rod. But that just me.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92TypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">stock sleeved/rod B20 has more reliability issues than a 84mm b18c or resleeved b20...thats just common fact. Not saying every single motor will poop out after you touch 8000 rpms, just saying that the risk of bad things happening increases drastically with a b20 the higher you take it. Not like a B18 where the r/s is reasonable enough to ensure 'safe' passage to 9k. I know someone still running around with his stock b20 bottom end and its been over 2 years, and I know people who have had rods snap after 5k miles...its all a matter of luck IMO.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Best reply in this thread.

 

my head is porter and ive got ctr cams, ctr intake mani and 62mm throttle body, oversized valves, i just thrashed my b16 bottom end, and im thinkin about the b20....

 

i have a friend with fully built b20 bottom resleved and everything, with jdm itr head and he didn't rev it high that much cuz he knew what would happen. one day one of his rods stretched. thats usually what happens first.

 

more first hand experience here, daily driven b20 block, with eagle rods/arp bolts. 12.5:1 and toda valvesprings. and i balanced the whole rotational assembly. driven very, very hard. goes to 8400 daily, has been to 9500 on a chipped ecu. i have enough confidence in it, planning for a 92-9500 rpm on the aem ems.

sleeving aint all that for na, i would love to be able to afford it and done right. ya hear more sleeving problems, horror stories and downtime than b20 sleeves shifting nowadays anyways. so far so good for me, havnt had a major malfunction yet.