first i cant believe i have driving around like this


here is my first dyno after i was tuned at secret services in tampa



now the alarming one from my dyno 1 hour ago becuase i wanted to see why my car felt sluggish well i found the answer, there was no tuning done and one power pull and i decided that was enough




now sit down for this one it is the current AF graph




holy jesus i cant believe my car hasnt blown up i have been driving and beating on it daily and having no sign of knock but my egts were getting high

what in the hell do you think happened

nothing has been done to this car since it was orginally tuned at secret services

heres the setup that hasnt changed through the 2 dynos

stock bottom end h22a4
cometic .057 hp HG
skunk 2 cam gears
turbonetics t3.63 AR stage 3 wheel / t04e 54 trim .50 AR
drag gen 4 manifold
custom catless 2.5 dp
mugen 60 mm catback
hondata s200b with 3 step rev limiter w/ p72 ECU
DSM 450s
action 2KS clutch
fidanza flywheel
greddy oil catch can
modified JR oil cooler
drag gen 2 IC and piping
AVCR boost controller
greddy EGT and Boost guages
J&S safeguard classic
bkr7e plugs
stock OEM honda ignition system NEW
custom CAI for turbo inlet

 

how long did it take to fix when you took it into the shop?

 

holy **** thats weird

 

is your fuel pump taking a ****? and what fpr are you running?

 

Even though hondata is good, its not great. When the weather changes so does the correction factors in the ECU. When you build fuel/timing maps in hondata, you are manipulating the only the fuel and timing tables. WHen the ecu trys to "scale" the fuel maps, it does so for the stock 240cc injectors (or whatever you have). Since the honda ecu is speed density, it really is making a calculated guess. Thus, you really need your car tuned for winter and summer. To be honest, you need to manipulate most any car's fuel and timing for every particullar day to achieve maxium performance.

Now I will step into my flame suit and let you guys start throwing the torches.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by danl &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Even though hondata is good, its not great. When the weather changes so does the correction factors in the ECU. When you build fuel/timing maps in hondata, you are manipulating the only the fuel and timing tables. WHen the ecu trys to "scale" the fuel maps, it does so for the stock 240cc injectors (or whatever you have). Since the honda ecu is speed density, it really is making a calculated guess. Thus, you really need your car tuned for winter and summer. To be honest, you need to manipulate most any car's fuel and timing for every particullar day to achieve maxium performance.

Now I will step into my flame suit and let you guys start throwing the torches. </TD></TR></TABLE>

If you look at his sheets and A/F that's 110% not the problem here. Those sheets look like two different motors, lol (sorry for laughing). I would call John and see what he says before you go any further.

 

could it be faulty injectors? man that looks messed up

 

I agree, the weather isn't gonna make a change that dramatic. something happened in the set up and my first guess would be to look towards the fuel pump. and call john

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by danl &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Even though hondata is good, its not great. When the weather changes so does the correction factors in the ECU. When you build fuel/timing maps in hondata, you are manipulating the only the fuel and timing tables. WHen the ecu trys to "scale" the fuel maps, it does so for the stock 240cc injectors (or whatever you have). Since the honda ecu is speed density, it really is making a calculated guess. Thus, you really need your car tuned for winter and summer. To be honest, you need to manipulate most any car's fuel and timing for every particullar day to achieve maxium performance.

Now I will step into my flame suit and let you guys start throwing the torches. </TD></TR></TABLE>

we arent going to flame you, however i will tell you, you are wrong, but thanks for trying


he lives in south florida, the weather doesnt change much for one.

Two, i have noticed my AFR's change from summer to winter (i live in N FL) only about .3:1

 

speechless.....hrm, its running lean as hell, so maybe its just an injector thats crapping out, or like jared said, your fuel pump could be on its last leg. Did you do a compression test?

Brett

 

did you get those dsms cleand before you dropped them in?

 

im gona say its the fuel pump or the pressure regulator

 

it looks to me like the map on the hondata is reading. i mean at first you have a nice 12.0:1 a/f then all of the sudden it goes from a FI standpoint to a N/A with a perfect stock 14.7:1 a/f

i don't htink its something wrong with injectors or a fuel pump considering the fluctuation between 3000rpm and 7000rpm, or lack there of. The a/f is perfectly consistant on the scrwed up one. I can almost bet on a hondata map reading error.

If its something mechanical, its gotta be the FPR screwing around with the pressure in the rail. Injectors don't "take a crap" on you, they just simply stop working. Same goes with fuel pumps.

-Ryan

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tegasaurus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">. Injectors don't "take a crap" on you, they just simply stop working. Same goes with fuel pumps.

-Ryan</TD></TR></TABLE>

for injectors yes.. but i have seen fuel pumps that wear out and dont flow as much.

 

really stupid question....

but was the wideband hooked up after a cat perhaps???

I was out of it 2 days ago and ran a wideband out of my exhaust tip....and was getting perfect stoich readings, and then came to my senses and realized I still had a cat

just a thought...

 

I'll throw in my 2 cents..

Something similar happened to me lately, although I'm not 100% sure what it is.. I cleaned my air filter after not cleaning it for like 2-3 yrs and my a/f coincidentally seemed much leaner afterwards. I wouldn't think that would do it but who knows. I had to add a good amount of fuel. It went from running high 11:1 to high 13:1 a/f ratio..

Also, w/ hondata.. Changes in temperature show BIG changes in a/f ratio. I run my ECU in open loop and it make an incredible difference. The weather was crazy not too long ago being in the 70's and then the 30's, and at idle it's around 14-15's in the cold, and when it was hot it would get as lean as 18-20:1.. So whoever says hondata doesn't show HUGE differences in temperature is wrong. This could have to do w/ the motor being more heatsoaked, but either way there's no way to "fix" the temperature related problems of the hondata. The only "fix" would be to run the ECU in closed loop.

Oh ya, I haven't really gotten a chance to make comparisons between WOT pulls in boost at different temps, but maybe i'll make a log on a piece of paper what the a/fs are at different temps.

-Mike

 

thats frikken wierd.... hmmmm

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SlowTeg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'll throw in my 2 cents..

Something similar happened to me lately, although I'm not 100% sure what it is.. I cleaned my air filter after not cleaning it for like 2-3 yrs and my a/f coincidentally seemed much leaner afterwards. I wouldn't think that would do it but who knows. I had to add a good amount of fuel. It went from running high 11:1 to high 13:1 a/f ratio..

Also, w/ hondata.. Changes in temperature show BIG changes in a/f ratio. I run my ECU in open loop and it make an incredible difference. The weather was crazy not too long ago being in the 70's and then the 30's, and at idle it's around 14-15's in the cold, and when it was hot it would get as lean as 18-20:1.. So whoever says hondata doesn't show HUGE differences in temperature is wrong. This could have to do w/ the motor being more heatsoaked, but either way there's no way to "fix" the temperature related problems of the hondata. The only "fix" would be to run the ECU in closed loop.

Oh ya, I haven't really gotten a chance to make comparisons between WOT pulls in boost at different temps, but maybe i'll make a log on a piece of paper what the a/fs are at different temps.

-Mike</TD></TR></TABLE>


When you clean the air filter, you reduce the pressure drop between the turbo and filter. Their is actually a vacuum in the intake snorkle to the turbo if your filter is clogged. This change in pressure differential makes the turbo work harder to make a set amount of boost, thus heating the air more. The honda ecu reads manifold pressure to help calculate the proper amount of fuel to inject. You are still boosting the same after you clean the air filter, but the air is denser since the turbo works less to produce the same amount of boost. Since the Honda ecu does not directly calculate the mass of the air (and thus its density and thus the amount of O2 molecules) it does not add more fuel. More oxygen but the same amount of fuel, you do the math.

The issue with the change of fueling with temperature is this. We'll use the approximation of 1% change in air density per 10 degree F in temperature. IE: if the air temperature drops 10%, the air contains 1% more oxygen molecules at the same volume. Say the stock Honda ECU adds 6% more fuel for a temperature drop of 60 degrees. Therefore it takes the injector pulse width and multiplied it by 1.06 to add 6% more fuel. Now think about this, what happens when you add 6% more pulse width to 240cc injectors compared to those 800cc injectors you installed? 6% more duty cycle on 800cc injectors tends to be a little more fuel than 6% more pulse width on 240cc injectors, or at least that has been my experience . Now, this is a very generalized linear explanation. In the real world these things aren't linear. Large fuel injectors don't act very linear due to the larger mass of the pintle or associated moving components. But we'll keep this between you and I because I don't know what I'm talking about.

Every car is diffferent. I would *** of u and me that most Hondas would go rich when it goes colder (ECU over correcting with to much fuel), and leaner when it gets hotter. I would not take this as fact, but I would check my a/f ratio and make sure its still ok after a large temperature change. My friends CRX and your car both seem to go richer when it gets colder out, and leaner when warmer out which supports my theory.


Modified by danl at 2:45 PM 12/3/2003

 

if everyone looks at his setup, he didnt say what kind of fuel pump he was running. Maybe he is running stock fuel pump and the pump crapped out on him??

 

wow sorry i was gone for 2 days on business but i have a lot of questions to answer

1. stock FPR
2. B&M guage is reading 42 psi idle
3. injectors were cleaned and deemed excellent condition less than 1000 miles on them
4.the MAP sensor from what tegasaurus says me be a culprit but doesnt hondata still retain trouble codes if it were to be bad
5. WB was in the tailpipe but i run a straight through exhaust with no cat
6. the closed loop theory, doesnt it go into open loop at a certain % throttle ?
7. stock fuel pump is runnning but like i said i have been getting between ~42 at idle


im open for anything

but if i do get the AF back to where it needs to be do you think it would bring it back to where it was, cause to me it looks like it might not

and according to hondata the stock h22 fuel pump is good up to ~300 whp

thanks for all the help guys

 

42psi at idle dosnt mean ****. there is no load on it. you need to get it on the dyno and watch the fuel pressure under load.

i dunno, its odd how its perfectly flat at 14.7........

 

Uhh.. when did I say you didn't know what you were talking about? Maybe you should re-read my post.

Anyway.. I understand your logic, but if a filter is clogged and you clean it, wouldn't it just cause the intake temps to be cooler compared to a clogged filter, meaning the ECU should compensate for it w/ the readings from the IAT?

I've heard that theory many times regarding changing a/fs according to temp. It makes sense, I just wish hondata could "fix" it, although they may not be able to.

To the person who's car is running lean in boost, it seems like it's a simple solution. Throw a wb on and throw alot of fuel in the map and see if it goes rich.

-Mike

 

im still sticking with an electrical problem with either A) hondata or B) map sensor at this point its a toss-up for which one im picking.

-Ryan

 

mIKE

if you are talking to me i have no clue about what you are talking about in my situation maybe there should be a new hondata and how the air temp effects it

just a suggestion

but i love the ideas coming

but look at the power curves for gad sakes i think if i do richen it up it isnt gonna make me where i was will it

maybe john will chime in i emailed him and called but he wass busy

tega.

how can i test the map ? or should i post this on hondatas board<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SlowTeg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Uhh.. when did I say you didn't know what you were talking about? Maybe you should re-read my post.

Anyway.. I understand your logic, but if a filter is clogged and you clean it, wouldn't it just cause the intake temps to be cooler compared to a clogged filter, meaning the ECU should compensate for it w/ the readings from the IAT?

I've heard that theory many times regarding changing a/fs according to temp. It makes sense, I just wish hondata could "fix" it, although they may not be able to.

To the person who's car is running lean in boost, it seems like it's a simple solution. Throw a wb on and throw alot of fuel in the map and see if it goes rich.

-Mike</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SlowTeg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Uhh.. when did I say you didn't know what you were talking about? Maybe you should re-read my post.
Anyway.. I understand your logic, but if a filter is clogged and you clean it, wouldn't it just cause the intake temps to be cooler compared to a clogged filter, meaning the ECU should compensate for it w/ the readings from the IAT?

I've heard that theory many times regarding changing a/fs according to temp. It makes sense, I just wish hondata could "fix" it, although they may not be able to. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Your issue has nothing to do with intake temps and has everything to do with VE, volumetric efficiency. As you cleaned your air filter, you made it easier for air to get into your engine. Just like opening an e-cutout raises AFRs by making exhaust gases escaspe easier, allow air in more easily will do the same. But its surprising that yours changed from 11 to 13