ive got me a 92 gsr and decided to focus on the block for now, give me feedback on block setup.

-overbore or hone out cyl walls
-resurface deck
-new main/rod bearings
-new water/oil pump
-gsr girdle from 94+
-ctr pistons
-shotpeen rods
-balance

for cams im really leaning to skunk2 stage II's, due to perfomance & price.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gutted &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ive got me a 92 gsr and decided to focus on the block for now, give me feedback on block setup.

-overbore or hone out cyl walls
-resurface deck
-new main/rod bearings
-new water/oil pump
-gsr girdle from 94+
-ctr pistons
-shotpeen rods
-balance

for cams im really leaning to skunk2 stage II's, due to perfomance & price.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

That all sounds good except for the block girdle. Don't waste your money. ARP rod bolts. Just get the ACL bearing kit with all new bearings and thrust washers look into all new gaskets on the motor. That will be a decent street set-up. Be around low 11 compression w/ a PR3 head. Stage 2's would work. You'd wanna look into a little head work. May have better luck with stage 1's.

 

ok i got a new perspective on things. whats included in the ACL bearing kit. if it is the mains, rods, and thrust bearings. thats pretty damn cheap. thanks


Modified by gutted at 11:08 AM 11/17/2003

 

ok ill be doing my parts collection for my build up and i need more advice.

-shotpeening my rods will be ok around 9-9.5k correct [assuming ive got cams that will make power up there]
-ive decided no need for block girdle and ill go with the ARP rod bolts.
-the ACL bearings are only in one size. im kind of iffy on buying bearing that arent specifically sized for my mains & rods. anybody got a response to that because ive seen alot of guys [on the boards] running these bearing and not having a complaint yet.
-any other bottom end work that needs to be done, i want my block done by spring time.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr Milano &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

That all sounds good except for the block girdle. Don't waste your money. ARP rod bolts. Just get the ACL bearing kit with all new bearings and thrust washers look into all new gaskets on the motor. That will be a decent street set-up. Be around low 11 compression w/ a PR3 head. Stage 2's would work. You'd wanna look into a little head work. May have better luck with stage 1's.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Good info except for the last part. Its not low 11's for the compression, its low 12's. 12.3:1 to be exact. Had CTR's in m B17.. .Had to find out the hard was about the compression. CTR's come out of the hole 10 thousanths, so the piston to deck height is -.010. Go change your numbers in the Cspeed comp calculator and you will get the correct results. I have a picture of how much they come out of the hole if you don't believe me.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hybrid93Eg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Good info except for the last part. Its not low 11's for the compression, its low 12's. 12.3:1 to be exact. Had CTR's in m B17.. .Had to find out the hard was about the compression. CTR's come out of the hole 10 thousanths, so the piston to deck height is -.010. Go change your numbers in the Cspeed comp calculator and you will get the correct results. I have a picture of how much they come out of the hole if you don't believe me.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If this were true C-Speed says that the B17A's compression would be 12.3:1 and the the B16A's would be 11.8:1. There is no way that CTR's in an otherwise stock B16A = 11.8:1 compression. True it is not 10.8:1 like it says it is more around 11.1:1 (as tested by SGT) not 11.8:1.

This is why I don't use C-Speed's.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr Milano &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

If this were true C-Speed says that the B17A's compression would be 12.3:1 and the the B16A's would be 11.8:1. There is no way that CTR's in an otherwise stock B16A = 11.8:1 compression. True it is not 10.8:1 like it says it is more around 11.1:1 (as tested by SGT) not 11.8:1.

This is why I don't use C-Speed's.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Tell me EXACTLY what part of the Cspeed comp calculator is wrong. You can't just hop on the bandwagon and assume its inaccurate. Give me exact numbers and I can tell you right now what the compression ratio will be. Thier head volumes I have verified to be correct. The only thing I could not verify myself was the displacement of the piston itself in the combustion chamber. I know for a fact the CTR's come out of the hole on both a B17 and a B16. I have physically installed them in both engines and verified this to be correct. So I am positive again about the negative deck height as well.

 

I am not hoping on any bandwagon. All the blocks are right, all the head chamber volumes are right, PDD's are right and OEM head gasket thickness is right as well.

Then only thing that has ever been confused about was the installed deck height. It works fine when you use like components but no one has confirmed when you start swapping differnt pistons into diffent blocks.

I'm sorry, but I need proof that you take a stock undecked unmilled B16A motor, put stock 81mm CTR pistons in it and it gives you 11.8:1 compression according to C-Speed.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gutted &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ok ill be doing my parts collection for my build up and i need more advice.

-shotpeening my rods will be ok around 9-9.5k correct [assuming ive got cams that will make power up there]
-ive decided no need for block girdle and ill go with the ARP rod bolts.
-the ACL bearings are only in one size. im kind of iffy on buying bearing that arent specifically sized for my mains & rods. anybody got a response to that because ive seen alot of guys [on the boards] running these bearing and not having a complaint yet.
-any other bottom end work that needs to be done, i want my block done by spring time.</TD></TR></TABLE> hey that all sounds like the right stuff man, I would take my rotating assembly to a competent machine shop for it to be balanced. also a lightweight flywheel (ACT 8.8# is like $225!) would be a smart addition to free up some power.

here here for a B17A

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gutted &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ok ill be doing my parts collection for my build up and i need more advice.

-shotpeening my rods will be ok around 9-9.5k correct [assuming ive got cams that will make power up there]
-ive decided no need for block girdle and ill go with the ARP rod bolts.
-the ACL bearings are only in one size. im kind of iffy on buying bearing that arent specifically sized for my mains & rods. anybody got a response to that because ive seen alot of guys [on the boards] running these bearing and not having a complaint yet.
-any other bottom end work that needs to be done, i want my block done by spring time.</TD></TR></TABLE>

ACL's come in "standard" sizes only. This is really quite simple. Stick em in, plastiguage them, and if they are in spec, move on. I used them in my B17 and had no issues with the fit.

I wouldn't waste the dough on shotpeening the rods. I run 100% stock rods up to 9k all day long with no issues.

 

owen_the_soyboy - balancing is just making sure all rods & pistons are the same weight correct? could you do the same with an accurate scale & little grinder

hybrid93EG - before i order the ACL bearing im going to measure my journals & bores and make sure the bearings will fit right. yah one of my buddies just told me not to waste money on shotpeening. he told me arp rod bolts are more important.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gutted &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">owen_the_soyboy - balancing is just making sure all rods & pistons are the same weight correct? could you do the same with an accurate scale & little grinder

hybrid93EG - before i order the ACL bearing im going to measure my journals & bores and make sure the bearings will fit right. yah one of my buddies just told me not to waste money on shotpeening. he told me arp rod bolts are more important.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Your smoking crack Not to be mean, but you can't measure them without the bearings in the journals and without plastigauging them.

 

sorta man, the most important part is balancing the crank, crank pulley and flywheel and pressure plate. Usually the rods and pistons will be almost identical in weight, but spin balancing the crank and the other mentioned parts can be critical.

its only $100 around here to have the balancing done.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hybrid93Eg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Your smoking crack Not to be mean, but you can't measure them without the bearings in the journals and without plastigauging them.</TD></TR></TABLE>

well actually i could get my clearances by subtracting [bore diameter - journal diameter - bearing thickness - bearing thickness. this is a better way then shelling out $100 and finding out that bearing arent in spec and they're a waste. correct

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gutted &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

well actually i could get my clearances by subtracting [bore diameter - journal diameter - bearing thickness - bearing thickness. this is a better way then shelling out $100 and finding out that bearing arent in spec and they're a waste. correct </TD></TR></TABLE>

no, not correct. While this might give you a "rough" idea of what the clearances will be, you still cannot tell for sure what they will be once the rod bolts have been properly torqued. Again, the only 100% reliable way to get the clearances is to put the bearings in the rod and plastigaue them. Trying to save a little money when building a motor will cost you greatly in the end. 9 times out of 10, the "standard" bearings will work just fine anyways. Even if you got one or two that were off and had to order specific sizes from Honda you will have still saved over having to order a complete set from them. Trust me. Don't cut corners.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr Milano &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am not hoping on any bandwagon. All the blocks are right, all the head chamber volumes are right, PDD's are right and OEM head gasket thickness is right as well.

Then only thing that has ever been confused about was the installed deck height. It works fine when you use like components but no one has confirmed when you start swapping differnt pistons into diffent blocks.

I'm sorry, but I need proof that you take a stock undecked unmilled B16A motor, put stock 81mm CTR pistons in it and it gives you 11.8:1 compression according to C-Speed.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Do a search on this subject. There are many people who have done the install of CTR's on B16's who can tell you first hand they come out of the hole approximately .06. On a B17 I know for a fact they are out at least .010. Any way you want to look at it, your compression ratio is going to rest at 11.8:1 in a B16 block, and 12.3:1 in a B17. Again, search. I know what I am talking about. I put many hours into researching this when I had issues with NOX levels in my B17. It makes perfect sense once you see the real compression ratio is 12.3:1 and not 11.7:1 like C speed says.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hybrid93Eg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Do a search on this subject. There are many people who have done the install of CTR's on B16's who can tell you first hand they come out of the hole approximately .06. On a B17 I know for a fact they are out at least .010. Any way you want to look at it, your compression ratio is going to rest at 11.8:1 in a B16 block, and 12.3:1 in a B17. Again, search. I know what I am talking about. I put many hours into researching this when I had issues with NOX levels in my B17. It makes perfect sense once you see the real compression ratio is 12.3:1 and not 11.7:1 like C speed says.</TD></TR></TABLE>

C-Speed claims 10.8:1 and 11.3:1 on the B16A and B17A accordingly. I've been on here for quite a while now and I've read a lot of B16A and B17A threads because I'm quite partial to them and that's what I'm building.

Every single argument is always half the people go by C-Speed and say 10.8:1 and the other people who are supposidly "in the know" or respected engine builders on this site agree the install height is indeed wrong on the C-Speed site and claim 11.1:1.

I'm am not discrediting you or saying your are wrong. It's just strange I've never seen this come up before that's all.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hybrid93Eg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">no, not correct. While this might give you a "rough" idea of what the clearances will be, you still cannot tell for sure what they will be once the rod bolts have been properly torqued. Again, the only 100% reliable way to get the clearances is to put the bearings in the rod and plastigaue them. Trying to save a little money when building a motor will cost you greatly in the end. 9 times out of 10, the "standard" bearings will work just fine anyways. Even if you got one or two that were off and had to order specific sizes from Honda you will have still saved over having to order a complete set from them. Trust me. Don't cut corners.</TD></TR></TABLE>

but why? lets say you torque down the main caps [w/o bearings] and take your bore measurement then wouldnt that be accurate? if all your measurements are dead on then wouldnt you get the same result as plastigaging? what would throw of the readings? does the bearings 'crush' to a different thickness once torqued with the crankshaft? if you could enlightening me, im just trying to get learned
and im not tryign to cut corners im just trying to save money on buying the right parts but you are right that if one or two are off then i could just get a set from my work [acura]

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gutted &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

but why? lets say you torque down the main caps [w/o bearings] and take your bore measurement then wouldnt that be accurate? if all your measurements are dead on then wouldnt you get the same result as plastigaging? what would throw of the readings? does the bearings 'crush' to a different thickness once torqued with the crankshaft? if you could enlightening me, im just trying to get learned
and im not tryign to cut corners im just trying to save money on buying the right parts but you are right that if one or two are off then i could just get a set from my work [acura]
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, the bearing is designed to slightly crush on the edges, where the two halves meet. With this in mind, I would worry that your method would provide slightly inaccurate readings. It wouldn't take much as you are already checking for clearances in the thousanthds. Get a measurement wrong and the bearing comes out too tight and I can assure it won't take long for the engine to let you know

 

alright now it all makes sense. now do i want my clearances to be on the low side or the high side? in the helms man they say .024mm - .042mm [.0009"-.0017"]. heard if your on the high side you free up some HP but have to watch your bearings & oil pump.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gutted &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">alright now it all makes sense. now do i want my clearances to be on the low side or the high side? in the helms man they say .024mm - .042mm [.0009"-.0017"]. heard if your on the high side you free up some HP but have to watch your bearings & oil pump.</TD></TR></TABLE>

People used to build engines on the "loose" side with the idea that it would free up some hp. Personally, I have never tried this idea. I like my clearances to be in the middle. Not too tight, not too loose. Technically anything in that range will be fine. Only problem is if the bearing starts out on the edge of the tollerance scale, say at .0017, then there isn't much room to allow for wear before you are out of spec. Too much oil clearance IS a bad thing. Too little is also a bad thing as well.

 

cool thanks for helping out with this youve been really helpful

 

I've got a 92' GSR, and I basically did what you're doing about a year ago...
I agree with piston to deck height, the ctr's do slightly come over the top of the deck...Though it did not cause a problem, just made clearences very close. I've been warned by a friend (Master Technician) to be very careful if I start playing with cam gears...Definately replace oil and water pump or you'll be tearing your motor apart a year later due to a shattered oil pump gear, I still have to finish putting mine back together. Balancing is also very crucial, I had mine done for about 80 bucks, that included shaving the ends of the rods for oversized CTR pistons...I'm running Skunk2 StageII's, they are bad ***, especially with the high compression. Also consider a blockgaurd since your B17's open already, I had mine tackwelded before the block was resurfaced, a little extra insurance never hurts. Whatever you end up running be sure to get a good ecu upgrade, Skunk's has worked out well for me, I tried to save a little cash and run it with my stock ecu for awhile prior to the upgrade...DON'T do that to yourself or your engine! GET the upgrade, wether it be Skunk, Hondata, or whatever. And as far as the plasti-gauge goes, It is ONLY a couple of dollars and much easier to go by than adding hypothetical measurments and hoping they're right! ARP's are good **** too by the way, got 'em on my rods...Hope it works out well, it will DEFINATELY be worth the time and money...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1stGENGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've got a 92' GSR, and I basically did what you're doing about a year ago...
I agree with piston to deck height, the ctr's do slightly come over the top of the deck...Though it did not cause a problem, just made clearences very close. I've been warned by a friend (Master Technician) to be very careful if I start playing with cam gears...Definately replace oil and water pump or you'll be tearing your motor apart a year later due to a shattered oil pump gear, I still have to finish putting mine back together. Balancing is also very crucial, I had mine done for about 80 bucks, that included shaving the ends of the rods for oversized CTR pistons...I'm running Skunk2 StageII's, they are bad ***, especially with the high compression. Also consider a blockgaurd since your B17's open already, I had mine tackwelded before the block was resurfaced, a little extra insurance never hurts. Whatever you end up running be sure to get a good ecu upgrade, Skunk's has worked out well for me, I tried to save a little cash and run it with my stock ecu for awhile prior to the upgrade...DON'T do that to yourself or your engine! GET the upgrade, wether it be Skunk, Hondata, or whatever. And as far as the plasti-gauge goes, It is ONLY a couple of dollars and much easier to go by than adding hypothetical measurments and hoping they're right! ARP's are good **** too by the way, got 'em on my rods...Hope it works out well, it will DEFINATELY be worth the time and money... </TD></TR></TABLE>

Blockgaurds are crap in my opinion. There is nothing wrong with an open deck design unless you plan on running some VERY high cylinder pressures. In your case, you have nothing to worry about. Blockgaurds will restrict coolant flow to the top portion of the cylinder walls, creating hot spots. Not smart if you ask me.