Ever noticed how the best engineered supercars are coming from Italy, Germany and Japan? They all lost the last world war so now their top minds are engineering cars while the United States are really good at producing the best weapons on earth, yet turning out 2nd rate vehicles compared to the other three/four countries. Just my opinion and rambling thought. The only current American supercars that I can think of currently is the upcoming Ford GT and the Saleen S7

1. Enzo -Italian built from a Japanese Designer.
2. Carerra GT -German
3. NSX-R - Japanese
4. SLR - German
5. Bugatti Veyron- Italian/German
6. Modena - Italian
7. GT2 - German
8. SL55 - German
9. GT-R - Japanese
10. McLaren F1 - Britain/German

 

I thought the Enzo was penned at Pinnafarina Design Studios? *scratches head*

 

The Ford GT and Saleen S7 are nothing to sneeze at, my friend.

But I see your point. The European and Japanese mentality are much more race bred oriented. Rather our type "race bred." For instance, souped up factory versions (I have no idea what they're called exactly though I know of their existance) of Camaros, Dodge Hemi Chargers or Barracudas, Buick Grand Nationals, Pontiac GTOs, yeah and Mustangs too. Sad, b/c Trans Am's hayday(sp?) certainly could have changed all of that.

 

It was. But the head designer was Japanese.

 

It's a simple precept of economics. Countries specialise in producing goods in which they have an absolute or comparitive advantage.

The US arguably has an absolute advantage in the defense industry (that advantage being the enormous purchasing power of the US military), so the brightest of our mechanical engineers naturally gravitate toward that field.

By comparison, the best we could hope for in the automotive industry is a comparitive advantage, and even that would be difficult given the highly competitive nature of the auto industry today.

Also, keep in mind mega-expensive performance cars have nowhere near the profit margin of the high-dollar luxury SUVs popular today. Frankly, I'm surprised Ford went ahead with plans to produce the Ford GT.

And while it may not have the cachet of the European exotics, I must say that the Corvette Z06 is one thoroughly impressive performance car.

All in all, I would be more impressed if the US auto manufacturers would produce (within US borders) a decent family sedan than I would with any supercar they may or may not make.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tanman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ever noticed how the best engineered supercars are coming from Italy, Germany and Japan? ...</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MK Ultra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The US arguably has an absolute advantage in the defense industry (that advantage being the enormous purchasing power of the US military), so the brightest of our mechanical engineers naturally gravitate toward that field.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I've heard this "best-engineer-gravition-to-defense-industry" theory before (a recent issue of a major automobile magazine's featured something similar for letter of the month)... It's very interesting and but I'm not convinced.

How much of the US's lag in technical innovation is a result of being forced to use "second-tier" engineers vs. executive-level decisions made to satisfy stock holders, have a profitable quarter, and so on?

There are a lot of factors that determine in which industry a person will end of working. I think many (or at least a significant percentage of) engineers choose their profession so they are able to work in a specific industry, not the other way around. If this is the case in even a small percentage of engineers, accepting the idea of all the best engineers ending up in the defense-industry becomes tough.

I have no hard facts to back up what I say, so I may be way off. Thoughts?




Modified by ojas at 6:37 PM 11/14/2003

 

From December 2003 C&D:

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ojas &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
How much of the US's lag in technical innovation is a result of being forced to use "second-tier" engineers vs. executive-level decisions made to satisfy stock holders, have a profitable quarter, and so on?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think you make an excellent point here.

The US auto companies are most concerned with the bottom line, and yes, there probably are people earning degrees in engineering specifically to become the next generation of car engineers/designers.

One point I'd like to bring up though is that a lot of american engineers/designers end up working for foreign auto companies. If you were an aspiring auto engineer, which company would you rather work for; the bean-counting American company that's going to have you designing the cheapest possible door handle for their next disposable rental fleet darling, or the foreign company that has interests in F1, WRC or some other high-level racing programme?

There is, I'm sure, a multitude of reasons for the current condition of the US auto industry. I was pointing out the first that came to my mind, but I think the point you've brought up is valid as well.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MK Ultra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's a simple precept of economics. Countries specialise in producing goods in which they have an absolute or comparitive advantage.

The US arguably has an absolute advantage in the defense industry (that advantage being the enormous purchasing power of the US military), so the brightest of our mechanical engineers naturally gravitate toward that field.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm finding it hard to believe the "defense industry" theory. Especially since the supercars mentioned lack any new tech that cannot be gleaned from current racecar technology. If GM wanted to build a competitive supercar it could and in many respects the Z06 fills that gap - though not aesthetically for me and certainly not with "new technology. That said, I do believe "economics" has much to do with it. Not from engineers looking from a good job but from the executive level. I think ojas hit nail on the head. Ford or GM can certainly build a competitve supercar but won't b/c they are deemed economically unfeasible. And they are deemed that way by those who make the decisions.

 

Well, to be fair supercars are economically impractical to build.

Who do you think makes more money; Lamborghini or General Motors?

I also think there's a cultural aspect to it. America hasn't built a true supercar since the Deusenbergs of the 1930s. Unless you count the Shelby Cobras, which were little more than an American engine shoehorned into a European chassis (IMO that doesn't count). Today's generation of consumers didn't grow up dreaming about some exotic American supercar. It's not a part of the corporate heritage, as it is with many European companies.

You don't have to believe the defense industry theory, but you should consider this: If the US military, for some odd reason, were to comission a supercar, it would be the baddest **** on the planet.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ojas &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I've heard this "best-engineer-gravition-to-defense-industry" theory before (a recent issue of a major automobile magazine's featured something similar for letter of the month)... It's very interesting and but I'm not convinced.

How much of the US's lag in technical innovation is a result of being forced to use "second-tier" engineers vs. executive-level decisions made to satisfy stock holders, have a profitable quarter, and so on?

There are a lot of factors that determine in which industry a person will end of working. I think many (or at least a significant percentage of) engineers choose their profession so they are able to work in a specific industry, not the other way around. If this is the case in even a small percentage of engineers, accepting the idea of all the best engineers ending up in the defense-industry becomes tough.

I have no hard facts to back up what I say, so I may be way off. Thoughts?


Modified by ojas at 6:37 PM 11/14/2003</TD></TR></TABLE>

Being an engineer, I went where the money was. Right now it's in Telecom for me. Shortly, I'll be making the move to defense though. It's never crossed my mind to enter the automotive fray. You have to know someone to get a half decent or interesting job in this industry.

So it really was a function of economics for me, although I wouldn't mind being on the powerplant engineering team for ANY automotive company. I think it would be interesting work. Like I said though, it's not WHAT you know but WHO you know.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knightsport &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...Shortly, I'll be making the move to defense though. It's never crossed my mind to enter the automotive fray.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Great. There goes the power of Western Civilization to defend itself. "Welcome to the Strategic Defense Intiative by Casey" - I can hear it now. God help us.

Hey Casey, just FYI, you point the gun in the enemy's direction!

PS - that "who you know" theory is crap.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ponyboy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The Ford GT and Saleen S7 are nothing to sneeze at, my friend.</TD></TR></TABLE>
couldn't tell you about the gt, but regarding engineering, the s7 IS something to sneeze at. if you ever get up close to one you'll realize why it costs 1/3 of what a mclaren sold for.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by supergreenNA1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
couldn't tell you about the gt, but regarding engineering, the s7 IS something to sneeze at. if you ever get up close to one you'll realize why it costs 1/3 of what a mclaren sold for.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nobody said the car was perfect. At the very least, it's a hell of an effort. Jeez, even an Enzo goes for a 1/3 of the McLaren and no one is complaining about it's quality or "value."

 

just sayin.
they asked our company quote some production components for the car.
their choice of methods and materials was in one word... scary.
our ceo refused to produce a quote.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ojas &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I've heard this "best-engineer-gravition-to-defense-industry" theory before (a recent issue of a major automobile magazine's featured something similar for letter of the month)... It's very interesting and but I'm not convinced.

How much of the US's lag in technical innovation is a result of being forced to use "second-tier" engineers vs. executive-level decisions made to satisfy stock holders, have a profitable quarter, and so on?

There are a lot of factors that determine in which industry a person will end of working. I think many (or at least a significant percentage of) engineers choose their profession so they are able to work in a specific industry, not the other way around. If this is the case in even a small percentage of engineers, accepting the idea of all the best engineers ending up in the defense-industry becomes tough.

I have no hard facts to back up what I say, so I may be way off. Thoughts?


Modified by ojas at 6:37 PM 11/14/2003</TD></TR></TABLE>
My opinion on this is that it is true. I am trying to get my masters in EE. The students I talk to wonder why they are in the engineering programs because more and more of these jobs are being shipped overseas. 450000 HIB's were issued in the hay day. The brightest have figured out that it doesn't pay. I think Americas dependence on foreign engineers will only increase. While our brightest find more profitable fields. While money isprobably a second concern, who wants to be under paid? Those average wages for engineers that I have seen I think take into account what it cost to have an engineer and not the actual wages. None of the engineers I know make anywhere near those figures.

In the weapons field we do not have to worry about foreign competition because the government will not sublet this out. They are also more inclined to use american engineers so to protect secrets. Who doesn't go to where the money is at.

 

actually theres nothing really special about the mb SLR . . .

engineering wise anyway

 

German =

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ponyboy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Great. There goes the power of Western Civilization to defend itself. "Welcome to the Strategic Defense Intiative by Casey" - I can hear it now. God help us.

Hey Casey, just FYI, you point the gun in the enemy's direction!

PS - that "who you know" theory is crap. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I've already closed out a sub-contract to use one of my patents on an aviations sytem for the new Tomohawk Cruise Missle. Which I might add worked smashingly in Iraq{Pun intended)

Who you know IS important. If my father-in-law hadn't told them of my special talents I wouldn't have received that nice gummit check.

The job I am looking at moving to is really nice. Test and Design of avionics systems for missles. Basically I get paid to go out to Arizona four times a year and shoot missles. So don't **** me off!

 

our m1a1 will run all of those over... we also make the best fighter jets in the world..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by cialz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">our m1a1 will run all of those over... we also make the best fighter jets in the world..</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would kill to get on the JSF project. That is such a beautiful machine.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mr poo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">actually theres nothing really special about the mb SLR . . .

engineering wise anyway</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hmph...doesn't it have the first factory carbon fiber body?

 

no,
i can call right off the bat that the pagani zonda has a carbon fiber body
maybe the mclaren too

 

The McLaren had the first Carbon Fibre Body and tub.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tanman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The McLaren had the first Carbon Fibre Body and tub.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Are you sure about that?