I went through the the threads and didn't see this covered, but sorry if it's a repost!

This month's Motor Trend has a few pages about about sport compacts. One of the cars they have a section on is the EP3...after the first paragraph, which only talks about the what the Si name is and what it was in the past, they go straight into this:

The new Civic has appropriated the Type R designation from the discontinued Acura Integra, as the name has instant cache among performance enthusiasts.

A recent preview drive of the Civic Type R revealed that it's indeed quite a ride and builds upon the legacy of hot-running Civics. The new Civic features [a bunch of stuff we all know about already ]...which would make it the fastest factory-produced Civic to date.

Taking cues from prototype and aftermarket efforts, the Type R's performance will be plenty for many and not enough for others. The choice is yours, and the possibilities are endless.

That's the end of the article. So...they spent 3 out of 4 paragraphs talking only about the Type R. Obviously they are writing from an American perspective, since the Integra wasn't discontinued overseas, they have the CTR elsewhere so it wouldn't be called a "preview", etc. etc.

Just thought some of you might be interested to hear this

 

My ep3 will be tradded in for it and if they bring it over for 04 i will be very pissed!
I bought my car on the contingincy that they would not bring over the type r right after i bought mine
well if they do

 

I posted the exact same thing you did on EP hatch.com, and a bunch of guys said they didnt really trust motor trend.......buncha morons, i think it will be brought over heat as a 2005 or mid 004 model. Thats my story and i am stickin to it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by simann &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I posted the exact same thing you did on EP hatch.com, and a bunch of guys said they didnt really trust motor trend.......buncha morons, i think it will be brought over heat as a 2005 or mid 004 model. Thats my story and i am stickin to it. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, it'll come over.

Does anyone, and I mean anyone, use common sense when discussing this topic? (A shred, something?)

Why in god's name would Honda bring over a more expensive version of a failure to the US? The EP3 has had DISMAL sales resulting in the price drop that went well below their cost. 02's were on the lot WITH 03's and were going for 14k. (19200 MSRP).

Now let's fast foward to 04. They just redesigned the Si slightly. Added new headlights, tail lights, 16" wheels, and the HFP package ($4000 price hike). Once this attempt to get the "enthusiast" back fails, I'm sure they'd LOVE to bring over a car with even MORE bells and whistles as well as a higer price, over to us.

We've done nothing for the sale of this car.

Since the HFP is approx 23k MSRP (19 + 4 for the kit) that would mean the CTR would have to start at like 24-26. That's just damn nuts.

It would be nice, but don't hold your breath. Even if they did bring them over, which model do you think we'd get? Not the JDM one, it would just be a UK model. No LSD, no HIDs, no red seats (Just ours with Type R stitched in), and I think they have a sunroof (but I hope not).

For the amount of money you're going to lose trading in a EP (A3) for an EP (A2), you could swap an RSX-S motor and boost it.

If you want the luxury of the CTR badge, ebay has LOADS to choose from.


Steve

 

I have said this before, but I think they should have been selling the EP3 Si at the price that most of us got it for: $16,000. At that price, it is an excellent, wonderful little car. Having a sticker price of $19,500 just scares the kids away and keeps people like me (old fogey penny pinchers) from writing a check.

I think they'd have sold many, many more and made more money overall by selling the car at a better price.

The alternative would be to have sold a 200 HP version of the EP3 for $19,500. This is profitable, and would have also blown the doors off the competition.

Woulda... Shoulda... Coulda...

Anyway, my EP3 Si is a great daily driver work car and was a great buy...at $16,000.

 

What are used 02 Si's going for on average? In this instance KBB or Edmunds isn't too accurate due to the lackluster sales driving values down below actual value.

I have a mint 99 Accord LX that I'd like to ditch as a daily ride, if an '02 would only cost me about $2500 out-of-pocket, I'll have to consider this.

Anthony "Mario" Crea

 

A used 02 with let's say 15k miles on it has a KBB/Edmonds value of 11 to 13k. A mere 8 to 6k drop in a year....ouch!


Steve

 

Wow they are getting cheaper by the minute.. literally.. my buddy is bout to get a civic but if an SI can be had for cheaper then haha why not..!

 

I sometimes wish they had Si'd the new coupe version instead, like they did with the last gen Civic.

From a marketing standpoint in the US, this car would have sold much better than the hatch that we got. Plus, the coupe is lighter and arguably more attractive. To the US market that has a stigma with hatches being cheap, a coupe would have been a better version IMO.

 

To the guy saying bringing the R here is a ridiculous idea for Honda....I disagree.

Honda can bring this car here. They have the money to do so. The sales of the Si are shakey at best, and an R variant would help them to keep their "compact performance" reputation despite all the recent competition in the US. When the EP3 came out, there wasn't really a sport compact market. Now even the American companies are making cars that are a similar performance value.

An R version of the RSX would not make sense; the Acura's sales are great.

My main reason for believing we will see this car is what Motor Trend says. I have been reading that magazine for years, and they are rarely wrong (if ever) about such things. Generally when they say something like this, it means they've heard from Honda, but are not allowed to actually say they heard from Honda. You may notice there is no reason to think they are speculating from the article. No mention of "we think..." or "it would make sense if....".

But there's no sense in debating it, really...I figured some of you would be interested to hear that insiders in the automotive industry seem to know that it's coming.

Also...Honda would have to be out of their minds to make a formal announcement ahead of time. That would seriously cripple sales of the Si, and probably even deter some RSX buyers who would like to see the R before making a decision. This seems like typical Honda strategy to me.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I sometimes wish they had Si'd the new coupe version instead, like they did with the last gen Civic.

From a marketing standpoint in the US, this car would have sold much better than the hatch that we got. Plus, the coupe is lighter and arguably more attractive. To the US market that has a stigma with hatches being cheap, a coupe would have been a better version IMO.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think the styling of the car itself not the hatchback is one of the reasons the car sold poorly. WRX Wagons, Protege5's, Focus ZX3's, Golfs, and Minis are all selling fairly well or very well respectively so I don't think there is a huge general aversion to hatchbacks. The Si just doesn't measure up very well in the styling dept, compared to all but maybe the Focus.

The main factor I'd say would've been the price tho, $19,500 is absolutely too much for that car, especially when it is not readily apparent that its a better performer than the Si it replaces (all while costing $2K more). Once the car's price fell to $16-17K more people jumped on board. That much is evident just from this board.

 

The hatch is lighter... but yes i agree if they brought the r over for the price of the si everyone would be like rsx what? and in the uk i believe not positive the hatch sales are higher but definetly definetly do not take my word for that because its heresay and i would not know where to find the statistics

 

also soon as i found out i could buy my car for 16k i was all over it great buy for the money and can be built for relativily not much money

 

Guess what the Civic Type R does cost close to $25000. I am in Japan. At the current exchange rate it is actually more if you want to have A/C and HID lights. When I bought my Integra R, it came to about $25000 with the exchange at 118/1. The Civic similarly equipped as the Integra was only $600 cheaper. And it doesn't come with the Brembos, the aluminum front lower arms, has 5ps and .4 kg-m torque less, and weighs about 88 lbs more. So obviously I went with the Integra. Currently with the $ demise, if I was to purchase the car now, it would of cost me another $3000. So if the Civic R does come stateside I don't think it will be priced below $25000. So how many people are actually going to buy it at that price? Maybe a handful. Hopefully Honda brings it in, but I don't see it happening honestly.

Chris

 

Well, the CTR is made in England (not sure if its made in Japan too), so our pricing would reflect the pounds-&gt;dollars exchange rate.

 

And it sells in England I think for like 16000£. So the current rate is like $1.65/£1. So that would make it like $26,400

Chris

 

Just a note about the Motor Trend part of it,
the same magazine said earlier this year that
we'd see the CTR in fall of '03, so a lot of people
don't trust that as much as they might have
otherwise.

One interesting thing is a rep from Hasport has
confirmed the rumor, saying we will see it mid-next year. Will be interesting (more A2's in the US...I'll take the first wrecked one, thank you) if it's true.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JMU R1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I think the styling of the car itself not the hatchback is one of the reasons the car sold poorly. WRX Wagons, Protege5's, Focus ZX3's, Golfs, and Minis are all selling fairly well or very well respectively so I don't think there is a huge general aversion to hatchbacks. The Si just doesn't measure up very well in the styling dept, compared to all but maybe the Focus.

The main factor I'd say would've been the price tho, $19,500 is absolutely too much for that car, especially when it is not readily apparent that its a better performer than the Si it replaces (all while costing $2K more). Once the car's price fell to $16-17K more people jumped on board. That much is evident just from this board.</TD></TR></TABLE>

All of those cars are either cheaper or in a different segment (AWD, turbo, much nicer interior and/or more power, etc).

To be honest, I agree and think the EP3 is just about one of the ugliest stock cars that Honda has made. But who here buys a Honda for its looks? I don't. But some people do, and that's why the EP3 isn't selling. But I still think that if you put that motor and badge on a coupe you wouldn't be able to keep them in stock at a Honda dealership.

BTW--the Ex coupe is *much* lighter than the Si hatch. Ex coupe = 2597lbs.

And if the CTR comes to America, how will it be superior to the RSX-S? Will we get the LSD and the other cool features, or will Honda hold back like they always do? I just don't understand the hype for an Si with basically a RSX-S motor in it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DC5RK20A &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And it sells in England I think for like 16000£. So the current rate is like $1.65/£1. So that would make it like $26,400

Chris</TD></TR></TABLE>Touche, but does that include some of the extra taxes England has? I know they pay quite an added premium for their cars, for instance the WRX in England MSRPs at £19995. That's $33,514.52 in USD. It stands to reason that the price you found for the Civic Type-R might not translate directly to what we'd pay.

 

I would also disagree with the comment that it wouldn't be smart for honda to bring over the CTR.

The reason why the Si didn't sell well was its performance. I don't think it really was because of its looks.

I didn't like them much at first, but now I do.

If a CTR was in the $20-22k range it would sell well.

I don't see it being competitive at $25k though.

 

I bought the car because for some erie reason i like hatch backs and my gsr was not doing it for me. The motor was a great plus and the interior is very simple and nice the way i like it i have a friend with a type s and it seems alot like my gsr so i went with the si.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HXMan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would also disagree with the comment that it wouldn't be smart for honda to bring over the CTR.

The reason why the Si didn't sell well was its performance. I don't think it really was because of its looks.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

The car didn't sell because 90% don't like how it looks. The only reason some are on this CTR trip is because it's the ricer's dream to have a "Hype R" even though deep inside they hate the way the car looks.

To the above post about the CTR increasing sales, you're way off. If you look at the Si sales, were most bought by enthusiasts? Probably not. Do you think Honda has EVER put the enthusiast before the regular consumer? Never. Honda would not be able to bring this car over for under 25k. If anyone would read my reasons why, you'd understand. (IE: 23k for a HFP Si to start...)

Keep the dream alive guys, I'll just mod my Si to a point where CTRs won't matter.


Steve

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by k-series &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The car didn't sell because 90% don't like how it looks. The only reason some are on this CTR trip is because it's the ricer's dream to have a "Hype R" even though deep inside they hate the way the car looks.

To the above post about the CTR increasing sales, you're way off. If you look at the Si sales, were most bought by enthusiasts? Probably not. Do you think Honda has EVER put the enthusiast before the regular consumer? Never. Honda would not be able to bring this car over for under 25k. If anyone would read my reasons why, you'd understand. (IE: 23k for a HFP Si to start...)

Keep the dream alive guys, I'll just mod my Si to a point where CTRs won't matter.
Steve</TD></TR></TABLE>I agree that the existence of HFP and A-Spec pretty much rule out the possibility of Type-R's (which I why I HATE both packages).

Honda has put the enthusiast before the regular consumer plenty of times with cars like the S2000, Integra Type-R, Civic Type-R, Accord Euro R, NSX (especially the Zanardi Edition, S Zero, and Type-R), and even the EK Civic Si to a degree. However, American Honda simply screwed up by making too many concessions to the average consumer with this Si, when the average consumer was not going to buy this car anyway.

I still think price, weight, and overall performance (stock) were the things keeping most people from buying EP3s. It simply doesn't have the same raucous fun character of some of the other Hondas and it is too expensive. On top of that, its the heaviest Honda hatch to date. In my mind one of the advantages of a hatchback is that it can be lighter. Add all of these negatives together + the divisive styling and you have a recipe for a slow-selling car.


Modified by JMU R1 at 6:11 PM 11/13/2003

 

Fot those who are wondering, my EP weighed in at 2630 without the spare/jack and with the gas tank on half full...not as bad as the listed 2744.

 

1. Selling the CTR for 25k+ is like selling a mini cooper s for 30k+ :/
2. It is coming next year. I'll revive this post when it's here.
3. I'm getting one - Watch out y0 ITR ownarz


why are people so cynical about the arrival of this car? Contact Motor Trend to see where they got their information.

haterz