I test drove an RSX not too long ago.

I was disappointed (to say the least) in the change of suspension architecture, but I decided to give the car a chance. To at least try to like it.

I don't.

Yes, I realise that my Integra (3rd Gen) rides like a go-kart. I like it that way. It is direct, responsive, it communicates well, and generally feels like a willing cohort on twisty roads. It is a car that says, "Let's play!"

The RSX feels entirely competent. That's all I can say for it. It will do what you ask of it, but it doesn't seem to care one way or the other how you drive it. It has lost the character that endeared me to two generations of Integras. It also seems to have dulled responses. Maybe that's just a lack of communication, the subtle feedback I've come to take for granted in my car that's filtered out of this one.

And I can't forget the low cowl and hoodline the old double wishbone setup allowed. This was once a hallmark of Honda design, one that I had always loved, and it is not possible with the struts. I almost wonder if the RSX is so damn tall because Honda wanted to put the driver's head a little higher in an effort to fool him into thinking the hoodline is still low.

All in all, my experience with the RSX was a depressing one. I think the double wishbone suspension was the biggest thing that made the Integras special. Take that away and you don't have much more than an ordinary FWD econo-box.

Bottom line: If I wanted a Celica, I could buy one from Toyota.

 

Very interesting points...

Recently, Members of Honda-Tech in the southeast region gathered for a Type R meet. There was an RSX Type S that showed up. Owned by a member on this Board (ArticFreeze). We caravaned up to the mountains of Helen and enjoyed the twisties. All I can say is this: Struts or no Struts...Driven by a competent driver, the RSX will perform. It kept up with the rest of the Type Rs with no problem.

It seriously isn't the end of the world that Honda decided to go with front struts. You make it sound like Honda was just sitting around and all of a sudden just slapped on the struts without testing it. Keep in mind that it has been 8 years since the the introduction of the DC2/DB8 chassis. I highly doubt that Honda, who has participated in various forms of motorsports worldwide, just waited till the last minute to decide that struts are the way to go.

I've seen a couple videos and specs regarding the new DC5 Type Rs and they reign supreme over our current ITRs. If the only thing that is stopping you from purchasing the RSX is the strut suspension then I think it is a little blown out of proportion. Unless you plan on competing in the World Challenge or build a dedicated race car, I don't think that you will ever use the double wishbone to it's full potential. It's just like buying a four wheel drive truck, yet you live in the city.

And what if Honda decided to stick with the double wishbone in the fronts? Will that justify a $25,000 base price tag? Then you get people complaining about how it's too expensive for a Honda. Try to see it through Honda's eyes for a second. I don't think they are here to just make us miserable or drive away potential customers with a strut setup.

 

I understand where you're coming from.

Like I said, the RSX feels competent. I never thought it's actual performance was lacking. I said the car has lost it's character. It doesn't feel fun anymore.

And really it doesn't matter how good it is with the struts, it would be better with double wishbones.

What depresses me (other than the death of a really enjoyable car) is that Honda used to be a company that stood for progress. I don't care how competent the RSX is, the change to struts is not a step fowrard.

Not only will I not buy an RSX, I will never buy another Honda product again until the double wishbones return to the Integra/RSX line.

 

Well this is more of a marketing move not an engineering one. But I agree that it is a step backward in progress...which I think is really stupid myself, but I'm not going to give up on them just like that. Honda built it's reputation and has a pretty decent number of loyal followers. Perhaps this is a mistake, but we won't know untill we see it in it's true form...the race prep version...in the US. Maybe they will learn from it.

I understand your passion and love for the fun, affordable, and agile Integra, but it's spirit is not lost in it's entirety. I guess Honda is going more mainstream. It's a company that sells car based on their reliability. Now I would flip if they were a company like Ferrari and switched from double wishbones to struts.

Remember in this world, the number of normal regular people outnumber us enthusiasts. So in the marketing department...that's where their money lies.

 

I would think that with struts you could have a lower hoodline since you basically have one less control arm. I don't think the change in the view/hoodline is due to the change of suspension type. Probably just styling. Could be wrong though.

I think the change from double-wishbones to struts isn't a big deal. I was initially shocked also at why Honda would do this, but when you look at how many cars do great without double-wishbones, it puts it into perspective. The new E46 M3 uses struts. Porsche GT2 I believe also uses struts. Even though I have driven neither, I guarantee those two cars will outhandle any double-wishboned DC2. The new DC5-R I will put money will outhandle DC2-R, and I bet it will be more "go-kart-like" than the RSX-S. We just need to get it here in the states...

 

Actually, struts are not as compact vertically because they are semi-structural members (this also means that strut suspensions transfer more stress to the chassis, negating some of the effects of the RSX's much stiffer structure).

But hey, I understand that everybody sees things a little differently. To me, well, let me put it this way: It's about how I'd feel if BMW replaced their Inline sixes with V6's.

And yeah, there are lots of other cars out there that use struts that I lust after. But they have things like RWD and rear mounted flat sixes to compensate for this oversight.

 

Oh and the reason for the switch wasn't economic. It was about interior volume.

Even though a double wishbone suspension is more compact vertically than a Mac strut setup, it is wider. That is, it eats up more space under the hood.

Take a look under the hood of an Integra and you will notice that the shock mounts are pretty far into the engine bay. The engine sits just in front of the front axle line. Look closely and you'll see that it would not be possible to fit the engine directly over the axle line because the suspension takes up too much room.

Now look under the (much shorter) hood of an RSX. You'll notice that the engine sits pretty much between the front suspension. The struts are taller, but they don't take up as much space under the hood. The engine bay is not as long as the Integra's, and it looks like every inch of it is packed full.

So why is the engine bay so much smaller? Because Honda wanted to maximize the interior volume without significantly increasing the car's length and width (and by way of that, weight). The only way the engineers could get that increase of interior volume was to push the firewall as far forward as possible. This meant the front suspension had to move forward too. Which put it where it flanked the engine. This was a problem. The double wishbone suspension's dimensions would not allow it to fit where they needed it to. But struts would.

So Honda compromised the character of their car for more interior room. That's the kind of compromise I hoped would never happen to the Integra. I was never disappointed with the amount of usable room inside an Integra anyway. It didn't need to be a bigger car.

 

My RSX-S handles better than a GS-R.

So tell me, how do you know what the car cares about? Does it tell you?


Bottom line is, the RSX-S outperforms the GS-R in every way, but if you prefer a lesser car, more power to you.

 

He's entitled to his opinion and it probably does feel a lot more in tune with the road, the RSX is more of a luxury car than the old Integras ever were.

Something could be said for you buying that thing instead of a 2001/2002 F-body that'd hand you your *** in a straight line and the turns.


[Modified by SkyeC, 5:47 PM 9/9/2001]

 

my interior is nicer

 

Numbers are only that, Bystander.

Great cars are about a driving experience. Not paper statistics.

Besides, I should hope that after eight years Honda could make something that outperforms the car it replaces. Am I supposed to be impressed?

Not only that, but I know that the RSX won't be nearly as easy to modify as an Integra. And my Integra isn't stock. It'll hand you your ***, any day, and you'll never catch up because you simply don't have the potential.

Enjoy your new Toyota.


[Modified by MK Ultra, 12:09 AM 9/10/2001]

 

Okay, Orson

 

i dunno....we had an RSX at our S2K meet yesterday and he seemed to keep up just fine, both in the curves and on the straights. of course, noone was really pushing it too hard. it's a nice looking car in arctic blue anyway.

btw, caparing honda's strut set-up to BMW's or porsche is a little ridiculous, since those cars are RWD.

 

Actually, some cars do. I've never driven an RSX, and I own a Type-R. But having driven other cars that have higher limits than my Type-R and getting into a Type-R and driving it, the feelings and emotions are different. The Type-R just FEELS confident. It's steering firms up at high rpms, the car settles into corners better,
brakes well, etc. It's easier to extract maximum potential from a car that's predictable and communicates well with the driver than a car that has higher limits but is more isolated.

Its hard to explain and it's a personal thing. The closest thing I can compare it to is when Car And Driver voted BMW's M3 the best handling car for any price. If you read carefully, it was not the fastest car, but it was the easiest to drive fast. Words like "confidence inspiring" and "communicates well" are used often. That tells you something.

Anyway, this is a general issue, not really anything to do with an RSX.

 

I was doing that to make a point rather than to compare the cars as a whole.

 

and what do those ugly domestics have to do with this discussion?

 

lol, NOW you say your car is modified. funny how MANY people bring that up LATER in their arguments.

 

So?

Modifications only enhance (or deteriorate) what characteristics the car already posseses.

I too am disappointed in the RSX and I think that I'd rather drive a stock GS-R than any RSX.

Just my $.02.

 

And you drive what... a Ferrari?

(Funny, only thing said about the F-body is it's "ugly" or the interior isn't "as nice as an RSX" )

 

Are you serious Mycroft? I test drove a spanky new '01 GSR and my stock 160000+ mile G2 handled better. The GSR is a flat out boat around corners(stock). I faked a slolam test without cones and I thought I could have tipped over (mmmmm...that's an exaggeration, but you get my point)!

The biggest difference in the new design vs. the old is the extra weight you have to haul through the turns. It makes for a more "numbing" driving experience.

 

The second generation Integra handles considerably flatter than the 3rd generation Integra in stock form.

The second generation came with slightly thicker anti-sway bars and slightly stiffer springs. Once you change the springs/shocks for aftermarket parts the stiffer chassis of the 3rd generation Integra gives it a slight edge. Both came with crappy tyres.