Ok, Im looking into an H22 swap for an EG... Ive been in contact with Jamie Houseman in reguards to having a B series trans adapter made for an H22... Now, before I decide to fork out $1600 to have the adapter made I have a few questions I thought maybe you swap experts could help me out with...

1. Mounts: I understand this would change the postioning and shape of the the upper trans mount which might not be a very difficult thing to do... Question reguarding mounts is this... Would the other 2 mounts (Driver side/Rear) from your average bolt in EG/H22 mount kit still be retained?

2. Axles: Would axle positioning be affected by using the B series trans? B series axles will be used, will the driver side axle have any fitment issues?

3. Shift Linkage: Im assuming this would be a bolt on B series deal, should I run into any problems with this?

I dont want to hear any "Just go with a B series motor" comments or anything like that... Ive done B series to death and want to build a few H series motors and try and realize their potential until the aftermarket grows enough for me to move on to the K series... This is a solution to the H series trans issues and with the potential of the H motors this might actualy be something worth looking into...

Im considering bringing it to a So'Cal shop to have a full set of mounts fabricated and possibly mass produced along with the trans adapter if all goes well... I have numerous CNC outlets where I can have the mounts and adapters produced, I just gotta be the guinea pig to get it all going...

So all you swap.fab experts chime in here and give some opinions, suggestions and comments...

 

jackshaft will be an issue, because it bolts on the block, and it's lenght is only good for the h22a tranny.

you'd have to see if you can manufacture one for that, or get a shorter one made.

axels won't matter, you can always get different lenghts, but i'd be cautious about the jackshaft the most, for the tranny mount that can be fabbed easily... other thing is shifter, hydrolic (bars) VS cables... you'd have to mesure and fabricate a pivot for it.. and the tranny may be a bit further to the passenger than previous so it may be a weird angle for the rods..

clutch compoents would worry me, but if hausman can do that, hell i can't see seing a shifter be a problem, jacksahft well your in california hell you guys have access to it all...

if i had a haufman adapter i would gladly prototype stuff for the ek... and then send you the prototype to mass produce.

biggest issue (jackshaft) everything else "easy"

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HotWheelz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">jackshaft will be an issue, because it bolts on the block, and it's lenght is only good for the h22a tranny.

you'd have to see if you can manufacture one for that, or get a shorter one made</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was actually thinking of fab'ing a plate to adapt the B series intermediate shaft to the H series block or possibly even fab'ing a new bracket all together that would mate the B series Intermediate shaft to the H block...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">other thing is shifter, hydrolic (bars) VS cables... you'd have to mesure and fabricate a pivot for it.. and the tranny may be a bit further to the passenger than previous so it may be a weird angle for the rods..</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think the angles will be close to stock, if not than restructuring the bars to accomidate the angle shouldnt be too difficult...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">clutch compoents would worry me, but if hausman can do that, hell i can't see seing a shifter be a problem</TD></TR></TABLE>

From what Ive come to understand it actually uses the H series clutch and flywheel...

 

gonna require a special flywheel to make up for the 1/2" thick adapter plate. The tranny and both passenger side mounts should stay B series, just a custom upper drivers and AC mount. With an intermediate shaft adapter plate, you would be able to retain B series axles also.

I'm likely the only person to see both Bisi's and Jamie's setups in person.

Jamie has been running a 86-89 Teg tranny on a EW motor for 8-9 seasons now.

 

k, after swapping ideas with Mista Bone for an hour or so we came up with this...

Keep the stock B series upper and front trans mounts... This way you can use stock B series axles and shift linkage... An adapter plate or new bracket would have to be made for the B series int. shaft to bolt to the H block... Thats pretty easy to do...

The rear mount might be able to be used from any H series mount kit... maybe... If not a custom mount is not that big of a deal... A custom mount or bracket

The driver side mount is going to have to be custom but that isnt that big of a deal to do either...

The only concerns are the front to back positioning of the motor... The H motor sits a little further back than the B motors... This might be solved by slightly rotating the mounting point of the tranny to accomidate for the further laid back agle of the H motor... basicly keeping the corect angle of the H motoer and keeping the stock position of the B tranny with the adjustments made on the bolt positions of the adapter





Modified by RS_H22 at 6:17 PM 11/9/2003

 

that won't work..

because the h22a motor is tilted back some 15-18 degrees while B series are far less... your mounts will be off some degree's. either on the motor end mounts, or the transmission end of the mounts.

 

Why not get him to make a K series tranny mount. B series are going out.. 6 Speed... then people will buy because you won't only have a "RACE" setup but a street also.

I would personally bite on that one.

i could also help with EK mounts.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HotWheelz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">that won't work..

because the h22a motor is tilted back some 15-18 degrees while B series are far less... your mounts will be off some degree's. either on the motor end mounts, or the transmission end of the mounts.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

You can resolve this by rotating the trans positioning on the adapter clockwise to the precise degree of difference to allow the H22 motor to sit at the angle needed... Youd still be keeping the B series OEM tranny mounts in the stock location this way... This way the axles and linkage will be perfectly straight and will require zero modification


Modified by RS_H22 at 6:30 AM 11/10/2003

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HotWheelz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why not get him to make a K series tranny mount</TD></TR></TABLE>

The reason for B series is 1., because they are everywhere and very affordable... 2., The aftermarket support is huge for the B series tranny's... FD's, gear sets... Not to mention the cost of a B series tranny is about half that of the K series 6 speed...

 

h22a is just fine with the stock tranny. putting a b-series on it would be just stupid. the powerband in a h22 is much lower than a b-series. the b-series needs the differnt gearing to keep it in the powerband.
H22a vs GSR
1 3.370 - 3.230
2 1.950 - 1.900
3 1.360 - 1.360
4 1.071 - 1.034
5 .870 - .787
FD 4.266 - 4.40

not to much differnt at all, not worth $1600 on a stupid adapter. spent the money on a nice clutch/flywheel and a good header!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Downey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">h22a is just fine with the stock tranny. putting a b-series on it would be just stupid. the powerband in a h22 is much lower than a b-series. the b-series needs the differnt gearing to keep it in the powerband.
H22a vs GSR
1 3.370 - 3.230
2 1.950 - 1.900
3 1.360 - 1.360
4 1.071 - 1.034
5 .870 - .787
FD 4.266 - 4.40

not to much differnt at all, not worth $1600 on a stupid adapter. spent the money on a nice clutch/flywheel and a good header!</TD></TR></TABLE>

im with downey on this one... there isnt that much difference. not worth the hassle. get a prodrive final drive and call it a day

 

This mod isnt really for the stock H22, its for those that have built motors with cams that need to see 8400 or so rpms... The H tranny does not like shitfting at anything over 7800, it is tough to maintain quick and accurate shifting at anything above 7800... Its almost like it refuses to go into gear... The other downside is the cables, after bangin on the tranny for a while Ive seen the cables wear and stretch making accurate shifting a near impossibility... Its also a proven fact that H series syncros fail over a short period of time when being used with a full race style clutch and a few hard passes down the track... Ask Jeremy Lookofsky or Norris, they are changing trannies like there is no tomorrow... Bisi is actually running a D series tranny on his F22 for these same reasons...

Something the H series trannies need is a longer first gear to minimize wheel spin through the mid and top of the gear, there s no aftermarket suppoort for this... Also, if youve ever heard Norris or Jeremy go through the traps in 4th it sounds like they just shifted from 3rd to 5th, Granted they have huge strokes and arent revving too high, a tighter 4th would be nice at 3/4 track... Even on stock ludes you drop a little out of VTEC in certain gears... B series on the other hand has quite a few options for custom gearing... You can mix and match gears and FD's to compliment your set up, you dont have that option with the H trannies...

The b series trannies are inexpensive and everywhere with a huge aftermarket following... Its an easy solution to the H series tranny issues for built H22's...

 

please please please do it.... I would love to have a R tranny on my H22.

 

First off, I'm not a fabricator but from a general logic standpoint there are a few area's that I think would become issues. First, if you are using the B series with adapter, the added thickness of the plate would also require that you space out the flywheel with clutch assembly to reach correct? Is the H22 tranny's input shaft the same diameter and splines as a B series? I've never compared them so I'm not sure. If they aren't then you could use the B series flywheel and clutch assembly by making the flywheel/clutch spacer bolt pattern match.
As for the mounts, I know that the H22 is physically wider front to rear and side to side than a B series. The angle on the H22 is also different. If you were to mount the engine first using a custom driver's side bracket and mount combo or even those pieces from an EG H22 mount kit, wouldn't that throw the rear mount and upper tranny mount off? The adapter plate thickness and twisting the tranny to account for the motor angle would throw off the ability to use the EG/DC upper tranny mount. I mean you could use it in one form or another but you would have to fab a plate or something to account for the measurable differences. The rear mount would also be off in this aspect as well. By turning the tranny this would also put the shift linkage at an angle so bending the shift linkage would probably be required to make everything right.
I just give it some thought since this is not one of those "direct swap" questions. I hope that my ideas are not taken to heart but more of just something thrown out there to consider. It's hard to see eye to eye on a subject like this. If you do go through with it, keep me posted because I always like to hear about ideas like this becoming reality.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTECVillain &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">First off, I'm not a fabricator but from a general logic standpoint there are a few area's that I think would become issues. First, if you are using the B series with adapter, the added thickness of the plate would also require that you space out the flywheel with clutch assembly to reach correct?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Correct, you would have to use a custom thicker B series flywheel to accomidate for the added distance from the adapter plate... Youd aslo be using a B series clutch assembley

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Is the H22 tranny's input shaft the same diameter and splines as a B series?;/QUOTE]

Youd be using the B series axles and intermediate shaft... read my above posts ^^^^
[QUOTE]As for the mounts, I know that the H22 is physically wider front to rear and side to side than a B series. The angle on the H22 is also different. If you were to mount the engine first using a custom driver's side bracket and mount combo or even those pieces from an EG H22 mount kit, wouldn't that throw the rear mount and upper tranny mount off? The adapter plate thickness and twisting the tranny to account for the motor angle would throw off the ability to use the EG/DC upper tranny mount:</TD></TR></TABLE>

to accomidate the different angles of the H motor and the stock moundted B tranny is an easy task... Mock the holes on the plate for the block at the exact angle the H22 sits... keeping this angle, mock the holes for the tranny in the exact angle the stock B series tranny sits... the difference in angle will be adjusted in the actual bolt on positioning of the block and tranny to the adapter... make sense?

So the end result will be a slightly off center tranny/block combo which in the end when all bolted in will have both perfectly straight, just how they are supposed to be stock...

The side and rear mounts are easy to fab... you can actually use the rear H mount from any mount kit and cut the portion that bolts to the chassis off, fab a new bolt plate and weld it up... Side mount is just as easy

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RS_H22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Correct, you would have to use a custom thicker B series flywheel to accomidate for the added distance from the adapter plate... Youd aslo be using a B series clutch assembley</TD></TR></TABLE>

So will you be use a custom thicker flywheel or would you make some type of spacer and use a regular B series flywheel that's spaced out to the proper distance?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTECVillain &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

So will you be use a custom thicker flywheel or would you make some type of spacer and use a regular B series flywheel that's spaced out to the proper distance?</TD></TR></TABLE>

A spacer would be more likely to fail or flex with a strong race clutch... It would have to be a thicker flywheel for sure, It probably wouldnt be too hard to keep tha actual weight of a thikcer flywheel down either...

 

well if haufman or what ever can design a kit, i'd be up for us EK h22a swappers for B series mounts on my side since the car is going away this winter. could also design and help for that shifter assembly on a design.

i have a shop, hoist (2 post and 4 post) and also an aluminum tig welder, stainless, and all steel welders. access to a machine shop...

so if this was a go i'd could contribute if somebody would be looking for an EK perspective.

(for the 8500+rpm shift i noticed this tonight...)

my buddy was in my car taking an "incar video" and i basically missed almost every gear... had to shift around 7500.... so were going to investiate this... seems that it doesnt' wanna go in gear, when i let go the gas, and the rpm seems to be around 7500 it will go in, doesnt' grind just doesn't go in... "ODD"...

 

This project is just a well thought out idea at this point... Ive done a lot of research and covered alot of issues and conserns... Im not too sure if this will actually get done though... Im talking to a few people to try and get it done but its still in the talking and planning stages... I just posted this up to get people thinking and maybe help move this project along

 

well if this thing goes forward let me know, i'll contribute to as much as i can.

 

Rick, I might be a SOHC fellow, but you think I'm way ahead of the rest??????

Clocking the tranny???? I did mention crank centerline and H22 layback angles.

Rick, your in a dangerous area, you got me THINKING!!!!!!!

I'm sure the MINOR details that I bounced to you are considered MAJOR obstacles to the rest.

 

K series wouldn't work with H series because aren't their trannys spinning the oposite way ? curious on this ? or do i have it wrong ?

 

what if these people could make a bellhousing that bolts onto a b- series tranny then bolts to the H22 at the proper angle? this would eliminate the need for a thicker flywheel and less change of failure of the rotating assembly.

 

the bell housing is a MAJOR part of the tranny. The fab/tooling/casting costs would be out of this world.

I would guess at $25K just for the first prototype. Then to use the new clutch side housing you'd have to disassemble a GOOD tranny and reshim everything inside.

While you idea is a better fix, the cost outweighs the end result.

Lets see, figure 3 prototypes at $60,000. Teaching everyone how to rebuild their trannys, only make $500 per kit. You'd have to sell 120 kits just to break even on the prototype costs. Let alone the manufacturing costs per unit.

Anyone got $100K to try a new bellhousing?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mista Bone &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the bell housing is a MAJOR part of the tranny. The fab/tooling/casting costs would be out of this world.

I would guess at $25K just for the first prototype. Then to use the new clutch side housing you'd have to disassemble a GOOD tranny and reshim everything inside.

While you idea is a better fix, the cost outweighs the end result.

Lets see, figure 3 prototypes at $60,000. Teaching everyone how to rebuild their trannys, only make $500 per kit. You'd have to sell 120 kits just to break even on the prototype costs. Let alone the manufacturing costs per unit.

Anyone got $100K to try a new bellhousing?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually it could be done for under $25K, but inspite of that, we decided to just do adapter plates. We are going to make mounts for both D and B adapted trannies with H-series motors.