This has been asked before, but not to the detail that I am asking... As I sit here in front of my computer on a nice Sat afternoon can't stop thinking to myself does it really make sense to continue to make a GSR into a race car when it is likely to be uncompetitive in ITS?

This queston led me to the next question: What is the best racing series/type of car to race? This will be answered with different perspectives and opinions. Please just state why.

Here are my thoughts....

1. Before this question can be answered one must ask, well what I am trying to do with racing? Am I in it for the fame? Money? Weekend enjoyment? These will all yield different answers.

2. How much money to spend?

3. What series is best to rise through the ranks? Which will get you noticed? In order to be noticed does there need to be a national race?

4. What car makes the most sense? Which has the most speed? Which has the best handling? Which is the most cost effective?

5. Are you willing to let racing run your life or your life run racing?

Lets try to keep this organized and follow the order so people can read it easily!

My answers:

1. I am 24 yrs old and I believe if I wanted to race for the money or fame I missed my boat, so I am in it for the fun, friends and great weekends!

2. Like the saying goes if you want to make money racing than have money before you race holds true. I have a minimal budget with no current sponsorships to speak of. So 100% out of pocket.

3. If you want to be seen I would say the best series is to start off in skippy formula cars, move up to barber dodge and then to toyota atlantic, and to CART. I have anyways been scared of open wheel cars though so I would say a national series in SCCA such as SSC or SSB and then to worldchallenge, ALMS, etc for us closed wheeled people

4. Unfortunately, I am poor so all I have currently is an unprepared GSR. However, I do feel that IT can be fun and affordable, but little chance of moving up and getting better. IT, which has no national, unless you consider ARRC has limited room to grow. I am asking the question so I am eager to hear what everyone has to say. I think that CRX's and civics are great cars, but the problem I run into is EVERYONE has them so its hard to differentiate yourself from the competition.

5. I race for fun, but I certainly want to win as well so how do you balance this problem?

Sorry so long....

 

Best way to find out all thoes details is to ask someone who is fairly well seasoned already. Definately DONT want your track and daily driver car to be the same one if you're on a tight budget and dont have a backup car. Thats asking for trouble.

If you want a cheap car to race on the track, probably look into a domestic. They are cheap and have oodles of go fast mods for practically nothing compared to what we pay for tuning imports.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTECAcuraGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
1. Before this question can be answered one must ask, well what I am trying to do with racing? Am I in it for the fame? Money? Weekend enjoyment? These will all yield different answers.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't have any desire for fame, beyond my own circle of friends and fellow racers. If I never race outside of my home state (whatever that state is throughout my life) I would be fine with that. I don't plan to make any money racing, and racing will never be my income. I started for fun, and I'll finish when it isn't fun anymore.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">2. How much money to spend?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't have a cap. If I end up with a $20k CRX because that's what my budget allows, fine. If I don't spend one more penny, fine. I tried to set a budget in the beginning, but realized I didn't have any money anyway so what's the point

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">3. What series is best to rise through the ranks? Which will get you noticed? In order to be noticed does there need to be a national race? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I can't really answer this one, since I don't plan to rise through the ranks. I would love to do a national race such as ARRC, but that's about it.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">4. What car makes the most sense? Which has the most speed? Which has the best handling? Which is the most cost effective?</TD></TR></TABLE>

For me the car that made the most sense was a car that I knew how to work on already, I knew I could find a lot of used parts for it, and I knew that a lot of other people also knew how to work on it. I also wanted to have a car that everyone else had, simply because it's hard to develop a new car and I wanted to drive, not build (sadly, still building, but that's a different story). Because I knew that my competitive edge would kick in at some point down the road, I wanted to start with a car that was a proven winner on the national level even if my car wasn't competitive for a long time. At least I know that my car will never hold me back, so I can always focus on my own driving skills. I also needed a car that I could wreak and it wouldn't ruin me. Finally, I chose a car that was going to be fast enough that I wouldn't get tired of driving it. That might never happen, and I might have been happy forever in ITC, but I didn't want to get bored.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">5. Are you willing to let racing run your life or your life run racing?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Racing is pretty low on my list, which is why I end up leaving it on the back burner quite often. For that reason, take my comments above in the proper context. Someone who plans to make racing a career will feel much differently than I.

 

im also 24 years old and want to go ahead and turn my '94 integra gsr into an ITS car, it doesn't really bother me that it wont be competitive in ITS, i just want to get out there. but i am struggling with conventional wisdom telling me to buy and not build a race car, even though i think it would be fun

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by camberangle &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i just want to get out there</TD></TR></TABLE>

Then buy a kart.

Or buy a prepped ITB or ITC car. You'll spend half as much on something that will be competitive when you are than you will just getting out there.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTECAcuraGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">5. I race for fun, but I certainly want to win as well so how do you balance this problem?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Based on all your questions/answers, the above quote needs to be first. You need to pick a car/class combination that fits your budget of having fun and having the abiltiy to win. If you aren't running up front, will it still be fun? Scott-Catch22 has done a great job detailing the differences between running an expensive faster non competive car and a "less" expensive slower but front running car.

By selecting a car/class combination that fits the expected budget, there will be a lot fewer times that you are dissappointed with your preparation/equipment.

Always beware of the Racers Rationalization Syndrome that attacks clear thinking and justifies the thinning of the wallet by spending thousands of dollars for tenths of seconds.

Rick

 

I've often run through these same quesions a million times in my head. Sure, I'd love to be able to quit my 8-5 M-F job and be a professional racer. I'd do it in a heartbeat if it were offered to me, as long as I could still afford to live comfortably and raise a family. I probably have better chances of winning the CA state lotto before that happens tho.

I'll be turning 29 later this year and I've been wanting to race since I can remember. I've never been in a financial state to be able to. I'm almost there now, but have a baby on the way. I'm starting to realize that while I'm waiting for someting to happen, life is passing me by. What do I do then?

My thoughts are, either get a Rotax Max Kart and trailer and start Karting. Or look into buying an already set up ITC or Spec RX7. I like the idea of a Spec car because I can be in the race with very little money, and competitive with a little more. The things that have me second guessing are transportation to/from the track. I could sell my 99 Civic and buy an older truck and trailer, but then I have nowhere to store it. I could try to keep a spec RX7 street legal and drive it to races, but then there's the risk of getting stuck. We just purchased a baby-mobile SUV. It can tow 3000 lbs. So I'm thinking if a car/trailer weighs more than that it has to make it to the track (and back) under it's own power. I run through this stuff in my head constantly. All I want to do is get out there and drive

Maybe I'm just full of excuses, and I should just do something about it. . . . . . .

Steve

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTECAcuraGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">2. How much money to spend? </TD></TR></TABLE>

With respect, you never did answer this question. How much money do you have in the bank today that you are willing to spend on this game?

K

 

I would like to add one question that may scare you, but it made sense when I heard it. When it comes to racing, you have to be able to write off the race car. Someone on this board expressed it as being able to drive that car off of a cliff or burn it down to the ground and be left with no financial burden that will affect you or your personal life.

Can you do that?

If not, look harder into your strategy. Running up front comes with it's risk.


Modified by ITACivic at 3:31 AM 11/2/2003

 

How do you make a small fortune in racing? Start with a bigger one. As stated earlier... you must be willing to push the car off a cliff, or torch the car down to the ground at any moment... cause one good wreck (not even your fault) can end that car.

How fast do you wanna go will depend on how much $$$$$ you got. Yes, there will always be the story about how one guy took some crappy equipment to the front w. driving skill, but that's the exception more than the norm. It take a great driver with a great car these days to make it up front no matter what series you run. Car prep and driver skills wins races.

My advice... (if you haven't done it already) first do autocross or open track days. See if you have any instincts when it comes to racing and the cajones. (some people quit after spend a lot of money in racing because it gets too intense) If you like it open track days, keep goin. Also, people can tell if you have some basic skills at track days. Move into wheel to wheel if you feel so inclined. You can skip the autocross if you like, but open track days are definitely a stepping stone to see if you have the skills to go wheel to wheel (not at open track days... it's not a race) and it will definitely make the transition to wheel to wheel easier.

And when you're ready to jump into wheel to wheel, then I suggest a spec series or karts so you can see where you really stack up as a driver. In IT, Showroom Stock, etc. you can't tell if it's driver or car. But in a spec series you'll know how you stack up.

And if you really need to be recognized/using this to feed your ego... then just quit now. There's a lot of great drivers you've probably never heard of... and I'm sure they could beat a lot of the people you see in ALMS and World Challenge. They just don't have a ride or the money. There are lots of people who are better and faster than you. You'll realize this when you start goin wheel to wheel and meet more and more former drivers.

Good luck to you and hope to see you in World Challenge one day.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sleedawg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... in a spec series you'll know how you stack up. ...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wrong. Sorry - this is one of the great myths perpetuated on racers around the world. The only thing that makes a one-make series different is that the cheaters and the big spenders are all driving the same kind of car.

New info (to me anyway) is that one of the Sunbelt "spec" Miata speed secrets is the amount of slop that the cam gears seem to have. Funny how, with a twin cam engine, a few thou of rotation to work with translates into a few degrees of came timing adjustability and a big dollop of power.

Do not fall for the spec series fib.

K

 

[QUOTE=sleedawg] In IT, Showroom Stock, etc. you can't tell if it's driver or car. But in a spec series you'll know how you stack up. [QUOTE]

I take exception to this statement. You can tell who the real drivers with good equipment are in IT and SS. There are rules limiting preparation in these classes as well. They are also the same drivers who run up front in the spec classes.

Rick

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">New info (to me anyway) is that one of the Sunbelt "spec" Miata speed secrets is the amount of slop that the cam gears seem to have. Funny how, with a twin cam engine, a few thou of rotation to work with translates into a few degrees of came timing adjustability and a big dollop of power.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That doesn't sound like cheating or big-spending to me. It sounds like a way to make a little bit of power using slight stock adjustments. As with any series (spec or otherwise) there will always be cheating and always people with more money to spend. The guys with more money in a spec series will have a new engine and all new components on their car. They will finish more races because the chance of mechanical failure will be reduced. There's absolutely no way of racing at the bottom of the budget range and expect to win in any series anywhere.

However, when there are limitations the gap between big-spenders and budget weekend warriors is lessened. SM is hugely popular so it has more exposure and thus more oppertunity for sponsorship cash than say Spec RX7. I wouldn't call SM anywhere near "budget racing", even if the cars are all the same it's not cheap. Look at the Ferrari 360 Challenge. It's "spec" but certainly not cheap. ok, now I'm just rambling on.

Steve

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That doesn't sound like cheating or big-spending to me. It sounds like a way to make a little bit of power using slight stock adjustments. </TD></TR></TABLE>

The problem is, most of it isnt just slight stock adjustments. At least with spec miata... $5,000 engines...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... It sounds like a way to make a little bit of power using slight stock adjustments. ...</TD></TR></TABLE>

That "slight stock adjustment" requires time and a skilled operator on a Bridgeport mill and is just one of many tweaks. If I know about it, it sure as hell isn't the sneakiest of the tricks being applied and every one costs money.

K

 

A couple of things I'd like to comment on here and they may not seem to pertinent but thought I'd share my view. To answer a lot of your questions, you somewhat need to project ahead and determine how much you want racing a car to define you or be a part of your identity. I think that a great deal of time is spent here discussing the importance of expectations in racing but not the why of your life and being a racer determines your penchant for spending. At the end of the day, you can fully understand that you won't "go pro" or that you won't "get noticed" or that you won't win the big race but how much importance will you place on your friends knowing you as "the racer?" How vital will it be for you to be that guy that races on the weekends to your co-workers, new acquaintances, or how others present you, etc ... There is a common refrain here from some of the older and wiser folk to go to school, develop a career, establish yourself in society and THEN go racing. It's good advice for two reasons. One, the obvious, is the financial consideration. Two, maybe telegraphing my point here, because you are by all means more than the racer - perhaps the husband/wife, the parent, the business owner, the writer, the good civitan or any of many other things that are more healthy ways of forming your identity. I say this for one reason only. The money. If you don't have the financial wherewithal to continue to feed your "identity," its really not a good combination of a dependency and resources. In the end, it doesn't matter if you are good at racing to identify yourself with it - my suggestion is to have more to fall back on than that.

Personally, I don't think I was mature enough in my young twenties to go racing but by no means is this age specific - I simply didn't have a career and a goal and hadn't really grown into myself yet. I would have been forced to be exceptionally frugal for my income at the time but I think in the end, I would have leveraged my racing future for my racing present (someone else's quote but me likey very much).

As for the GSRs won't be competetive, I don't think anyone has proven this to be fact and I have seen some GSRs way up on the grid and on the top step several times. I don't think you need to worry about differentiating yourself with what you drive, you, your attitude, the way you interact with others, your skills themselves more than differentiate you vs. what you drive. I am unclear as to why you wouldn't improve in ITS, seems to me that anywhere you race you will have a chance to improve even if improving is just in terms of level of competetiveness or the way others regard you (_at the track_ not in a forum like this). Again, I am unsure why you are concerned about class growth and national racing - its not the class that makes the driver, there are greats in all forms of club racing, from IT to SS to Prod there are names that everyone knows and everyone respects - noone says, "but he just drives in IT."

I would seriously consider taking a step back and redefining what _your_ goals are here in a vacuum. Not trying to be a *****, rather hoping some of this makes sense. And maybe I am just a guy too old to have pipe-dreams and I am shitting on yours, if so, very sorry, that's not the intent.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phat-S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
As for the GSRs won't be competetive, I don't think anyone has proven this to be fact and I have seen some GSRs way up on the grid and on the top step several times. I don't think you need to worry about differentiating yourself with what you drive, you, your attitude, the way you interact with others, your skills themselves more than differentiate you vs. what you drive. I am unclear as to why you wouldn't improve in ITS, seems to me that anywhere you race you will have a chance to improve even if improving is just in terms of level of competetiveness or the way others regard you (_at the track_ not in a forum like this). Again, I am unsure why you are concerned about class growth and national racing - its not the class that makes the driver, there are greats in all forms of club racing, from IT to SS to Prod there are names that everyone knows and everyone respects - noone says, "but he just drives in IT."

I would seriously consider taking a step back and redefining what _your_ goals are here in a vacuum. Not trying to be a *****, rather hoping some of this makes sense. And maybe I am just a guy too old to have pipe-dreams and I am shitting on yours, if so, very sorry, that's not the intent.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I kind of feel like you. On paper the GSR is not competitive, but it is also very underdeveloped and has seen little interest in making it fast. I am the type that would like to win like us all but winning is not everything. Would it be nice to be able to go into work and say I won a race? Absolutely! but is it a neccesity? No.
I am on a limited budget, but I feel as though I can make do with what I have and have a blast! Pefect example: Civic 44 - He looks to have a beat up not well prepped civic and is winning races and having fun. Sometime I think we get too caught up in racing and not enough on "life"

Phat-S you are 100% correct. I thought that life was racing at first and when I finally got old enough to realize this a light bulb went off in my head telling me racing is a hobby. Do NOT let it run your life.

With that said, anymore opinions?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTECAcuraGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">With that said, anymore opinions?</TD></TR></TABLE>

The money spent on getting your GSR ready enough to just get out there would have bought you a built and logbooked racecar that could be competitive down the line.

But if you dont intend to race and continue to open track or instruct, then keep it -you've already got it prepared and ready to go.

 

Autocrossing now, roadracing MAY be in my future but no specific plans yet

1) I am in it for two reasons
a) fun
b) to help develop as an engineer in the automotive industry. It helps me keep a much better perspective on things, and a place to test my designs.

2) I have two funds: 'car' and 'other' (rent, food, etc) Whatever is not necessary for 'other' goes into 'car' Does that answer your question?

3) Pack up and move to Europe. Professional road racing in this country is a joke.

4) For autocrossing, you can't do better than this


5) Cars already run my life and have so for most of my mature (I use that term loosely) life. My only rule is that racing cannot negatively impact my career in automotive engineering.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTECAcuraGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> On paper the GSR is not competitive, but it is also very underdeveloped and has seen little interest in making it fast. </TD></TR></TABLE>

IMO the only reason the GSR is "not competitive" is because of the e36 bmw. The GSRs are already faster than the "classic" ITS cars like the 240z, rx7 and e30 bmw, at least at summit point in the MARRS.

I have no clue whether the GSR could compete with the e36 if anyone spent as much time and money on it as has been spent on the e36. Anyone got $100k and 2 years?

joel

 

RJ et. all

Motor isn't the end all be all in racing. There are plenty of people out west that run Rebello, Sunbelt, and other motors in Spec Miata that are tweaked to the limit of the rules, and some that are completely cheating. It will be the same in no matter what form of racing you go into.

What I love is driving a hunk-o-s**t and beating someone who spent major bucks on a car. People can tell the difference between someone driving the wheels off the car, and people who are driving a car that is just that good.

My favorite thing to do is taking a rental car to a track day away from my home where people don't know me and drive the crap out of it and pass people who have suspension upgrades, engine mods, etc. The look on their people's faces is priceless.

Reason I suggest SM or SRF or Ferrari Challenge or other spec series is that there are enough cars to be able to compare yourself among others with somewhat similar cars. In Showroom Stock or IT, there are certain cars that have the rulebook advantage and when you battle someone in a different car, you can't really tell if it was pure power/handling characteristic... or your driving that they just pulled away.

just my $.02

 

I run a car in ITA that is spos to be a top car Celica GTS. But with the 2.0 i dont even come close to my friends LS. My car is 2680lb, a pig on wheels. But my friend is much better driver then i am so that also plays a big part. Money wise i spent like 20% of what he did on my car and i can find parts at any pic o part yard. We are in it for fun i think you should think about this first. the key is cheap and fun.