OK Guys so this year I dropped Autocross in favor of HPDE's and I am now hooked for good (As if I wasn't before...) Anyways, the car is a 95 GSR and it has a Kirk Roll bar, sparco pro 2000 seats, 5 pt harnesses, an almost complete interior, koni yellows, GC's etc.

So I am constantly thinking about how it is so not street friendly and how I pay like 700 bucks a year for insurance on a car I dive maybe 4 times a month. Does this make sense?

Here is the scoop. I can borrow my dads GMC 3500 truck anytime I want and I would have to buy a car trailer. I figure the cost in insurance, regristartion, brake pads, etc would easily pay for a used car trailer and I would be even. If I go this far then why do I need an interior? Why don't I sell the interior take out the moonroof, etc and turn it into a dedicated track car and not have t worry about how to get home if I crash it. Any thoughts on this? I also figured that I would uninstall the roll bar, sell it and get a cage put in for additional safety, along with sell my airbags, cruise, car alarm, radio, cd player, etc.... How much is this stuff worth? Any ideas?

Any and all opinions would be greatly appreciated!

 

It makes perfect sense. I'll be honest. I'd rather drive my tow rig, or my thousand dollar beater, to work than the race car. The race car, even in pre-race trim, was loud and uncomfortable. Driving it in a way that made it fun was extremely illegal and even dangerous.

You have to figure out, such that you can, how far gone you are and how much the car is worth. You also have to figure out if you're going to stay with the current car. Also keep in mind that early DC2 Integras are getting to the point where they're not worth all that much money.

I say that if you have the disposable income to get a daily driver (assuming you even need one), and the GS-R is paid off, there's little reason not to make it a dedicated track car. The difference between selling an 8 year old Integra as a track car or a race car may well favor the race car. I know my own 95 GS-R (with 128K miles on it) is worth far more as a race car than it is as a stock or lightly modified street car.

As to trailers, buy new. Used ones worth actually buying hold their value well enough that it's better to get a new one. Learn from my mistakes.

 

I just made the same decision that you are thinking about.

I just turned my 2000 ITR into a ECHC race car. I was doing tons of HPDE's and wanted to go to the next level. I rarely use my car (high theft, not really comfortable, etc. etc), so I figured, might as well turn it into a race car. My Toyota Tacoma V6 is now my daily driver and my tow truck (I bought a trailer.). My only problem is that I have to get a beater, the truck is not that good of a daily.

Advice:
1. Keep the car registered and insured for the first year. You may need to test the car out on the highway or whatever, so keep it somewhat street legal.
2. You can definitely sell parts from the interior, but you won't get much for panels or carpet or stuff like that. The only thing that really sells is the seats. The front and rear seats you can sell between $500-$1000, depending on condition, etc. etc. The roll bar you can sell for somewhat near what you paid. If you sell the roll bar and the seats, it will pay for half of a custom cage or a bolt/weld in pre-fab cage. I suggest going custom, but Kirk makes a good Integra cage ( http://www.kirkracing.com/page3.html )
3. Do it and don't look back, don't add up your bills. You won't regret it.
4. If you hurry up you can be racing ECHC next year. It seems to be a really great, low budget series, where a GSR can be competitive within it's class.

 

My 2 cents....

- Return the car back to stock
- sell the car
- sell the parts
- buy a pre-built car
- buy a trailer

 

The answer to the question in the title is more psycho-social than financial: As soon as you start timing laps, you need to decide whether you are going to build a racing car or quit...

Kirk

 

I agree with JeffS

 

Just turned my R in to a dedicated track mule and lovin' it. I had already gutted and prepped it quite a bit, so it was time to just cage it and get it over with! I got it inspected right before yanking the cat, so I have 12 more months of limited street use. 2,350 lbs!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Track rat &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just turned my R in to a dedicated track mule and lovin' it. I had already gutted and prepped it quite a bit, so it was time to just cage it and get it over with! I got it inspected right before yanking the cat, so I have 12 more months of limited street use. 2,350 lbs! </TD></TR></TABLE>

how'd sam do on the cage? got any pics?

 

i love daily driving my racecar....but i am weird.....don't have a truck at my disposal so i can't take mine off the road....

plus i have all this HP and i'm not sure i just want to use it on the racetrack....i like using it on the road too!

 

JeffS is 100% correct. I was going to post a long response saying the same thing that he did in 20 words or less.

 

I'm in a similar situation with my 96 GSR. Seats, cage, harnesses, and no interior. I have a DD, so I don't drive it on the street much anymore, but I don't have a tow vehicle, so I need to keep it legal so I can drive to and from events.

There will come a time when it will be trailered, but 'til then, gotta keep it on the street.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My 2 cents....

- Return the car back to stock
- sell the car
- sell the parts
- buy a pre-built car
- buy a trailer

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was waiting for this response!
Yes I realize that the GSR is not well classed in ITS, but I feel it could be regionally competitive. It's not like IT has the valvoline runoffs anyways. The ARRC is the losest to nationals you get. I would love to run Honda Challenge, but being from CT the closest track is Beaver Run and thats not so close.

The problem is that no matter what I do the car can not be put back t stock with all the holes in it for mounting the belts, roll bar, etc.. So I am left with a car that is a blast on the track and I could eventually turn into a ITS/Honda Challenge car as my skills continue to progress. My thought was If I want to continuw to get faster eventually more safety is needed and then you need to be able to get home if the car breaks or the driver breaks it.

Oh and yes the car is paid off and I can walk away from it at any time. I have a daily driver and I figure the parts (engine, suspension, etc) are worth more than the car itself.

Anymore thoughts?

 

I am basically going the same route as you, but with a different car (a cheaper car). I will be getting into HPDEs next year as my build up of my car this year was very painful. Problem after problem came up, so things took a lot longer than expected. That is one thing that always happens...things take much longer than expected.

I think you have things pretty well set and sorted out. Try to sell as much of the stock parts that you don't need. This will give you some money towards race car build parts which add up very quickly!

If you have any questions about your build up, feel free to ask me. I just did mine and am still sorting things out. Things are still fresh in my head, for now.

Good luck and hopefully I'll see you at a local race/HPDE one of these days!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTECAcuraGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The problem is that no matter what I do the car can not be put back t stock with all the holes in it for mounting the belts, roll bar, etc.. So I am left with a car that is a blast on the track and I could eventually turn into a ITS/Honda Challenge car as my skills continue to progress. My thought was If I want to continuw to get faster eventually more safety is needed and then you need to be able to get home if the car breaks or the driver breaks it.

Oh and yes the car is paid off and I can walk away from it at any time. I have a daily driver and I figure the parts (engine, suspension, etc) are worth more than the car itself.

Anymore thoughts?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm sure that holes and all, you could sell the car. I see this as a purely financial issue. A) do you have the money to convert it all at once or would it be a gradual build up? B) if you sold it as is (or with some parts removed), would the total of the cost of a pre-built car minus what you got in the sale be more or less than the cost of building your current car?

If you don't have the money to do it all at once, a gradual build may be the only option.
If you do have the money (or could get it in a reasonable time), would you be wasting money not buying someone else's car?

WHile most race cars don't seem to lose much value after they've been built, the difference between the build cost and the sale price for a finished car is shocking.

 

you should also consider the cost of running the car each year (I'm not even talking set up cost).

Do you have $5,000 to $10,000 extra income that can be used just to go to the races and keep the car in running order?? If not stay with HPDE.

 

[QUOTE=Mark sans hippo]
If you don't have the money to do it all at once, a gradual build may be the only option.
QUOTE]

I've been thinking about this comment. It's something that a lot of people do because they don't have the money to buy a built car.

I'm beginning to believe that if you don't have the money to buy the car upfront, then you more than likely don't have the money to race a car either.

 

I think many people see this as a black or white issue. Beginning to race is a grey area, for the car and for the number of events. Firstly, the car. You can purchase the roll cage and other safety equipment and simply start racing. It doesn't matter how well you place. It doesn't matter that you don't have an LSD or headers when all the others do. It doesn't matter if you're running on Toyo's and not Hoosiers. If you just want to start racing, not win at the ARRC, just put in the safety equipment, get a license and go.

The same goes for events. You don't need 5000-10000$ to start racing. You can just pick a few events, maybe 3 weekends your first year, a combination of HC, EMRA, SCCA, whatever you want. Just pick tracks that are close to home or that you are dying to go to (like WGI). You will be racing and getting experience. Maybe you won't be winning trophies or championships, but you'll be out there.

I went to 4 events (3 were doubles) this year and enjoyed them all. For three of them, I drove the car there. The car is not that fast in its class in any of these series (unless others don't show up), but I'm having a blast. The car is less modified than most ricers out there on the street, but it has safety equipment. I'm almost afraid that when I some day have a much newer car, trailering it to events, fighting for championships, I will be looking back on 2003 as "the good old days when I just drove the car to the track and didn't worry about winning". I had a ridiculously low budget this season and with deals to share the car in two enduros, I paid about 730$US to sign up for events (half of 2 enduros plus 6 sprints) I shared gas and hotel and had the prep done by my co-drivers or by myself (my car needs very little prep). I ran on used tires most of the time (some were free, others were 15$ each). I had a D16 swap to replace my D15, which was paid for by a friend who, in exchange, drove the car at several Solo 1 events.

You can race on a shoesting budget. You just can't expect to win races.
You can race in only a few events. You just can't expect to win any championships.
But the main thing is: you can get in the game without ruining yourself and still gain valuable experience.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">[QUOTE=Mark sans hippo]
If you don't have the money to do it all at once, a gradual build may be the only option.
QUOTE]

I've been thinking about this comment. It's something that a lot of people do because they don't have the money to buy a built car.

I'm beginning to believe that if you don't have the money to buy the car upfront, then you more than likely don't have the money to race a car either.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Let me say this.... I didn't want this thread to turn into a when do you go racing thread? Really it is a matter of OK, I have made the decision that I want to keep the GSR and use this as my weekend track car. I certainly realize there are many opinions on the classing and whether or not it makes the most sense.

Yes, I could sell the car and buy a race car. The money is not really a big issue here. The issue is when does it financially and mentally make sense to increase the saftey, not have to worry about getting it home and continue to grow your skills.

My thought was as speed increases so does the chance for an accident and therfore you want more protection. With this mindset how do you effectively minimize the financial impact while maximizing the goal of getting school time. Correct me if I am wrong, but I felt as though this is the time to increase the safety, etc.

 

I have to agree with civic44. I got two bits of advice from racers when I walking around the paddock telling them I wanted to start racing:

-Don't waste money on building a car. Buy a good used one.
-Don't waste money on expensive upgrades. YOU are the most important piece of go-fast equipment you have. &lt;or&gt; Racing makes you faster. get as much seat time as you can.

I took these both to heart and I started looking at what classes were in my area where I could run cheap cars. I came up with Rx-7 gen1(yuck), and GTIs. In my area there were only 2 GTIs racing, and none for sale. So I decided against rule #1 one so I could better do rule #2, which was to get experience. I built my crx over the span of about 6 months and it cost me about $7000, because I got all the best saftey gear. I spent no money on engine, tranny, and only basica brake and suspension upgrades. The plan was to just drive. But we got a pleasant surprise as to win the Honda Challenge 5 West Coast Championship and the Reno-Fernly 6 Hour, just on the the fact that our almost street car was more reliable that our competition, even though it wasn't as fast. That may be uncomon success, but the point is that don't let people discourage you. If you REALLY understand how much money it will cost, and that you won't be winning or going fast, then it is possible to have a good time road racing on a shoe string budget. (Ask my car trailer, aka used boat trailer with $200 of lumber on it )

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTECAcuraGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes, I could sell the car and buy a race car. The money is not really a big issue here. </TD></TR></TABLE>

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=575797 - I think the price on this car and its brothers was reduced to $10,000.

 

I could certainly take the hundreds of hours to put the car back to stock and sell for maybe $5K, but for what to go out and buy a car for 10K? If I invest another 2-3K in the car I have a very solid 95 GSR in race form (with on 75K on the odometer), paid off and ready to go. I guess I am confused what buying a car at this point is going to get me????

 

well, if money is not an issue, you are right, there is no reason to sell the GSR. If, however, you have a small budget, it may make sense to sell the car, buy another race-ready, SLOWER car. As in, instead of an ITS car, buy an ITC car like uncle Catch has.
The setup price of a race car usually pales in comparison with the yearly expenses of racing. By buying a slower car, you save FUTURE money on brake pads, tires, ball joints, rotors, hubs, etc.

I was in a similar situation to your this summer. I sold the GS-R to Floyd, and bought a caged civic tub from Catch22 to make into a race car. That was my choice (obviously, Floyd made the opposite one...)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTECAcuraGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I could certainly take the hundreds of hours to put the car back to stock and sell for maybe $5K, but for what to go out and buy a car for 10K? If I invest another 2-3K in the car I have a very solid 95 GSR in race form (with on 75K on the odometer), paid off and ready to go. I guess I am confused what buying a car at this point is going to get me????</TD></TR></TABLE>

Because a car like the one i linked is going to cost a **** load more to build than to buy already built. Like 2x as much. Or more.

Hell, the safety gear alone in that car is going to cost the "$2-3K" you're talking about. Not to mention the lightweight wheels, spares, other goodies that make it fast, the fact that its already sorted out - its a lose-lose situation no matter how you slice it.

You should be able to sell your car "as-is" for $6500-$7000.

 

Been there and done both. Now the CRX is a dedicated track car sitting on a NEW $4000 aluminum (very low depreciation) trailer. I really had not planned it this way any more than I planned to buy the Dakota to tow with. I wanted to keep my '96 Civic HB for daily and ocassional HPDE use too. Insurance and registration on 4 vehicles and a trailer ate the budget. The Civic is gone, the Prelude sees limited use (4k per year) and the rest do their thing. I also built the CRX so that it would remain street legal-barely if I ever want to put the plate back on. It does pass inspection.

It is your money that you must look at along with things like comfort and practicality of the setup. Many years ago (before some here were alive) we could drive our car to the track and put a straight pipe on it and run. This is not the best way today. I have done some HPDE events with folks whose cars are barely street legal, yet they drive them to the track. The decision is in your hands. Think very carefully.

 

New bumper for 95 Integra GSR (after some pimply, snot nosed riceboy decided that he needed to hit me)--3000 dollars
Blue book value--6500 dollars
Current runing total on my new half built (still in progress) racecar, including purchase price--3250 dollars
Leaving 3000 dollars to build it up and have some track fees left over.

JeffS is very, very right.