Long story short: I bought a used car. Just prior to purchase, the car was diagnosed with a bad head gasket, and it was replaced. I picked up the car shortly after the work was performed, and the car was fine for about 300-400 miles, after which, I'm finding oil in the coolant expansion tank.

So my question...are there any known pitfalls in a head gasket repair, or is it fairly straight-forward (just time intensive)?

It's remotely possible that another issue is causing these symptoms, but according to the mechanic, the car passed a compression test when the work was completed.

 

Maybe(?) it's just left over from the earlier bad gasket. Flush coolant real good in case the oil was just hanging out in the water jackets from before.

Or you could do a leakdown test to see if it's leaking into the water jacket...

 

I would agree with you, and the mechanic responded with the theory...however...the cooling system is overflowing (temps are normal), indicating that fluid (oil) is entering the cooling system once again.

I ordered a Helms manual last week...should have it within the next two days. For the time being, I'm wondering if a sloppy installation might cause the new gasket to leak?

 

I am fearing the worst-your mechanic use power or air rotary tool to remove the headgasket and he nicked, milled out the head-that would cause a really big problem.

do a flush frist, see if that lower the acidic level

 

That's entirely possible. On the receipt, there is a $75.00 charge to "Resurface Cyl Head". They also itemized out "Pressure Test Head" on the receipt (which I assume to mean a compression test). If there was an issue similar to what you're describing, I would think it would have become clear when they ran this test.

I really hope you're not right...or I'm going to be in a real pickle. The mechanic that performed this work is 200 miles away, so getting the car to him is a headache...and if he did the work incorrectly the first time, I have no reason to believe they'll do it right the second time. Getting somebody local to address this issue is going to cost me upwards of $1000 if you are right, and $700 if it's just another issue with the headgasket.

::holding head in hands::

 

if they pressure tested and resurfaced the head properly then the only thing left i can think of is improperly torqueing the head bolts down, unless they were just incompetent.
and pressure testing the head is not a compression test, they aactually test the head to make sure there is not a crack or some place in the metal where fluid can flow through.

 

Thanks for the help everyone!

 

if I am in your situation, i would take off the head and re-install it, let's hope like someone said before, the head bolt isnt torqued down properly(oil the thread frist), see if that helps,

 

welcome to my nightmare. I just replaced an engine because of this. I was experiencing the exact same thing.

if the head was resurfaced, and the head bolts were torqued down correctly then you are looking at 3 things: cracked head, cracked block, or a warped block. I replaced the motor because it's easier/cheaper to replace than it would be to deal with any of those problems correctly.

flush the radiator out. use "Zerex Super Flush" it does a pretty good job. if the problem continues, I'd take it back to the garage.

 

I dropped the car off at the local dealer for their opinion on the matter. They basically said the same thing...either the cylinder head bolts weren't torqued right, or cracked/warped block or cracked head.

Next step is to drive the car back to the mechanic that diagnosed and repaired the head gasket. Either they did the work incorrectly, or they misdiagnosed this true problem, and the head gasket work did nothing to resolve the issue. I'm not sure what recourse I'll have against the shop if they misdiagnosed the issue. I bought this car based on their diagnosis...if that was incorrect, I'm sitting on a pile of metal and rubber (for the princely sum of $8000). One thing is for certain, the shop isn't getting another red cent from me. I'm hoping they will be able to fix this.

I'll probably also follow up with local dealers where the seller may have had the car serviced. If I find any trace that he knew about a cracked/warped block *before* selling the car to me, then I'll contact a lawyer. I don't care what it costs me...if he KNEW about this and concealed the issue, I'll make sure he never does it again.

Lastly, if I may ask...how much did the new engine cost you? Labor to install?

 

I paid just over $2900 for a used F23 with about 45k on it, installation, new radiator and coolant hoses, heater core flush. new timing and balancer belts, water pump, plugs, new fluids, and I had them put a new OEM clutch in at the same time. I'm probably forgetting a couple little things but it was pretty much everything you could think of.

I probably could have found it all done for cheaper, but I KNEW these guys would do it right. theres something to be said for that. PM me if you want to know who did the work, they come very highly reccomended.

I will say this about what you just bought into.... I considered dumping my car instead of fixing it and I was told straight up to just take the car to carmax and trade it in. anything with high mileage they just drive around the lot to make sure it moves under its own power and then they cut you a check for it's book value. they don't care because no matter what they pay you for it, the car is going to auction. I was also told that most dealerships are only slightly more concered with the condition of a car they know is going to auction. I know nothing at all about the history of your car but.......it's something to think about

good luck proving the shop didn't do the work correctly and KNOWINGLY let you have a car back with this sort of issue. if the head gasket was replaced, the head milled and it passed a compression test after the work was done, then you pretty much cant ask for more out of them. thats just the standard procedure. sure you could check the block for cracks. you just have to completely remove the block from the car, tear it completely down, and have it checked. more expensive than a new motor, I can assure you that. The block should be checked for warpage, but it's not going to show up on an itemized bill, and realistically it would be difficult to prove it happened before the headgasket was replaced.

your car is going to overheat in the very near future. that sludge will continue to thicken until your water pump is basically trying to push peanut butter through your motor. not good for it's cooling capacity I would definately drive the car as little as possible, no matter how it seems to be running. If you havent' turned on the heat, don't.

just curious, how many miles were on the car when the HG blew and do you know any of the circumstances surrounding it. do you have any coolant leaking into your oil? or just oil in your coolant?

sorry this turned out to be a novel, but hopefully you found it useful

 

Very helpful...thank you!

Car had 71K on it when the issue arose. Oil is in the cooling system primarily. Coolant in the oil is minimal or zero, as we don't see it in the oil, and the exhaust fumes are relatively clean.

I drove 200 miles back to the mech that did the headgasket work. They left the car idling for 45 minutes to see if it would overheat or to see if oil was being drawn into the cooling system at idle. It wasn't...so it seems oil is getting into the cooling system when the car is under heavy load. In one week I've dropped about 2 qts of oil to this issue (whatever it is). If I baby the car (gentle acceleration, no high rpms) it doesn't seem to pull more oil into the cooling system.

FWIW, the mechanic seems to be pretty knowledgable and helpful. They gave me a car off their lot to borrow, until they can hunt this issue down. They aren't charging me for their time to remove the head (again) and retest it (not a compression test...a pressure test on a bench). If they can trace the cause to a cracked head, they'll source a new one and install it for less than $500. If they can't find a crack in the head, the assumption will be that the crack is in the block, and the engine will have to be replaced.

I'm hoping to hear more today, after the head is retested. Also, the mechanic mentioned that they didn't see fluid traces on the original head gasket, indicating a faulty headgasket was the cause. I wished they had mentioned this when they had the motor open the first time...as I still left myself a door to get out of this deal. Now that I've taken possession of the car, it's my problem to deal with.

The mechanic also mentioned that if it comes down to replacing the engine, they have contacts that can get them low mileage engines from Japan at a good price. I've price shopped a bit, and it seems $3K is the going rate for the parts and install. $2K if you find someone to cut you a deal, and/or pickup a higher mileage engine...say 50K.

My father mentioned something about oil causing premature deterioration of cooling system hoses. Do you know anything about this? The upper and low rad hoses are no big deal. Easy to access and replace down the road, if needed. However the hoses leading to the heater core might be a PITA, so I might be better off dealing with them now, if the engine gets replaced. The clutch will probably get replaced...as this car was devoted to commuting around the beltway in DC.

I can't help but to laugh at the irony here. I have a german car...and while mine is solid, I know enough about it to know that it will develop it's quirks as it ages. The honda was supposed to relieve me of those issues by accumulating my daily driver miles. A week after I get the Honda, I'm looking into replacing the engine! :-/

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Oil is in the cooling system primarily. Coolant in the oil is minimal or zero, as we don't see it in the oil, and the exhaust fumes are relatively clean.

it seems oil is getting into the cooling system when the car is under heavy load. In one week I've dropped about 2 qts of oil to this issue (whatever it is). If I baby the car (gentle acceleration, no high rpms) it doesn't seem to pull more oil into the cooling system.</TD></TR></TABLE>
sounds EXACTLY like mine....I mean EXACTLY, only I was pulling a little less oil in, but then again, I don't know what you drive like or how many miles you do in a week. sorry to say that because I did replace my head chasing it around, and it turned out that it was the block

I have heard that when oil and coolant mix they make an acid or are acidic, basically it will eat seals and hoses. It is a nasty mixture, almost impossible to clean/remove. I would replace the hoses no matter what, since they are pretty cheap. the heater core ones aren't too bad to get to when you have the head removed. at least the ones on the engine side of the firewall. replacing the ones on the other side require the removal of the dash, so on those I would wait for a problem

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I can't help but to laugh at the irony here.</TD></TR></TABLE> well at least you've kept your sense of humor about the whole thing.

 

Thanks for the help! I'll post a follow-up when they trace the cause.

 

i can get a low milage engine (30K) for way less then 1K why would it cost 3K installed ?? if you wanted to drive to cali to my shop i would have it completely done including all honda fluids for $1450.00 why couldnt you find a decent price like that where you live ??

 

yeah uhhhhmmmmm drive a car from the east coast to cali with a blown headgasket. sounds like fun

OK but seriously, I didn't even look for a better price since I KNEW the people doing it would do it right the first time and use all Honda parts. Plus they did a lot of other stuff at the same time, timing belt, clutch, radiator, etc. I'm not saying you wouldn't do it right too, and I don't know if your price would include that stuff as well. I'm sure I could find somebody to do it for half if I opened up the phone book and called around, but as I'm sure you know, there are a lot of mechanics out there and not all of them know what they are doing. I'm willing to pay more for confidence in a job done right.

 

So here's the (unhappy) ending.

1. Head was removed, and rechecked by the machine shop. Head was a-okay.
2. We're now assuming the block has a small crack in it (somewhere).
3. New engine (&lt;20K miles) is $1500.
4. Shop is willing to comp the time already billed toward the engine replacement. Net additional cost to me is $700 in labor.
5. $300 for a new clutch, throwout bearing, and pressure plate (flywheel *should* be fine), since they are already in there.
6. $100 core charge, but I get to keep the intake manifold, the entire head (machined and pressure tested...internals have 70K on them, but mechanic looked at it and said they are in great condition), water pump, and possibly some other bits off the old engine (alternator, starter, and who knows what else). Hopefully I can pawn some of this stuff off on ebay or something. What does an entire head, valves and all, go for? I figure somebody somewhere is going to snap a timing belt...a complete head HAS to be worth something...right?

I'm just adding this information for the archives. Thanks for all the help guys! This royally sucks, but hopefully I'll walk away with a car that will be good for a long time to come. That's what I really need right now.

 

I bought a complete F23A1 head for $125 + shipping. had 50k on it and was in excellent condition, but didn't have the sensors or the VTEC solenoid. intake manifold probaly goes for around $75 bare, more with sensors and throttle body.