S2k Supercharger vs. Turbocharger Thread


I’m writing this thread to clear up some garbage on both this forum as well as others. I’m not sure what makes people believe one claim over another, but I’ve read a lot of misinformation when it comes to Forced Induction on s2k’s.

Before I start, Id like to tell u a little history I have. I haven’t ever owned a Supercharged car, only a Turbo’d one. It was actually a b18b (integra) that had a completely stock motor and made over 270 whp. I basically ate, slept and **** FI/tuning for the past 3 years. You figure at the wheels, a stock b18b makes about 120 whp. So 270 – 120 = 150 whp increase. That’s pretty damn substaintial for a stock motor. I ran this car hard pretty much every day for 2 years. It had perfect compression to the day it was stolen. Now the secret to this is all in the tuning, and good components, I did all the installation, tuning and upkeep (barely any, besides oil changes and a couple blown off charge pipes).

Now its pretty well known at X psi, a properly tuned supercharger on a given car will not make as much power as a properly tuned turbocharged on the same car and same boost levels. If this is unclear, I encourage you to do some reading in the FI forum, and use the search feature.

I think what a lot of people believe that if you take a regular old comptech or vortech supercharge kit, and slap it on your car, its automatically more reliable than any turbo charge setup. Which I will tell you right now, is a complete crock of ****. A properly tuned turbo car will be just as reliable as a supercharged car.

That being said, there are a lot of factors you must look at, the biggest screamer about boosting a S2000 is the compression. I usually suggest a Compression ratio from 9:1 to 10:1, the higher the number, the smaller the window for tuning errors. And we all know what detonation can do to a motor.

Another big issue is the engine management, people get away using shitty FMU’s and garbage products like the greddy e-manage(if you think these products are that great, then read the FI section of Honda-tech, you will soon learn to appreciate standalones) and when used w/ superchargers, they can usually get away with them because they don’t make as much power.

Its vital, if you don’t want to half *** your FI setup to use a standalone. My personal favorite is the AEM EMS. I have tuned many cars w/ the EMS as well as hondata. You can control every aspect w/ the ems, most importantly the Fuel and Ignition. It also has boost control features, launch control, etc.

Tuning leads into what we have discussed thus far. With high compression, you have to watch your timing carefully, run too much and you will detonate, run too little, and adverse effects occur too. Fuel is also important, the average AFR w/ a boosted car under is around the 12.0:1 range. While cruising AFR’s are around 14.7-15.0.
Another big issue you have to look at is price and quality of product. We all know comptech and vortech make a supercharger kit for the s2k. While their fuel management solutions are ***, the other hardware aren’t bad. Now for turbo kits….I haven’t really seen that great of a kit out, Full-race will be coming out with one, and everyone knows how bad *** their manifolds are . Anyways, everyone also bitches about the price between a turbo setup vs. sc setup.

Lets talk about price break down.

Im not sure what deals go on w/ the superchargers, but I believe an aftercooled sc kit is about $5000-$6000.

Lets talk turbo kit components, I will give an example of a damn good pieced together kit:

Garrett t3/t04e turbo - $525
Full-race Manifold (available soon) - ~ $1300 (don’t know set price yet so ill over charge )
Tial wastegate - $215
Downpipe (make your own, its so easy) – $200
Intercooler - $600 for a monster
BOV - $150
Piping – $300
Injectors - $250
Engine management (say ems) - $900
Wideband o2 - $400 (atmost)
Oil lines ~ $130

You’d have the best components, and probably under 5000. Tuning would be extra if you cant tune yourself, but since I added the cost of a wideband, you could learn how to tune yourself

So on one side, you have a regular old SC w/ crappy fuel management which makes OK power, on the other side, you have top components(including a standalone and wideband) and IF tuned properly will make much more reliable power.

Now, just like most Hondas, the s2k wasn’t designed for boost. Of course w/ any FI setup, you’d probably need to upgrade the rear end and clutch of course.

I could talk about this crap for hours, but I figured Id throw out some of info, see how you guys react. Feel free to discuss this topic.

 

Good to hear! But I've already known that properly done turbos can be just as 'reliable' as an SC.. haven't seen much of people saying turbo is worse.. But good info!

 

Looks like a great plan Mase. I agree with you. The turbo kits I've seen out there aren't all that. A turbocharged car should be just as reliable as a SC'd one, it's all about tuning.

XS Engineering has a kit in development (currently prototype). However I'm not sure if they are planning to release it or not.

 

Personally i'm glad someone is talking about turbochargin the s2k. Everytime I even mention the word turbo, some tool starts mouthing off about how the supercharger is better and more reliable, or how you can't boost the s2k because of the compression. Thanks for putting out some real info.

 

Well, regarding the comment on the emanage, for it's cost, I think it's pretty good. My driveability on my turbo s2k is pretty good. There are hiccups here and there because of rich conditions, but I would chalk that up to insufficient tuning rather than the system itself. My A/F is a smooth 11.5:1 from 6k to 8500 rpm. I do think the main reason the emanage isn't good for the S2K stems from the fact that the emanage is a piggy back unit on an OBD II car. I did realize this first hand when I reset the ecu by pulling the battery. The car drove a little worse than before. For the budget-oriented, the emanage is a decent solution.

FWIW, when I do get the funds, I will be switching to the AEM EMS.

 

any one here have some experience on rear ends? i hear that (like stated above) the clutch and rear end are the weak points in the boosted s2k equation.

so what are the solutions? if any

 

i havent upgraded a rear end in a s2k so im not sure on the installation procedures, but I know comptech makes Reinforced Differential but have a core, so you have to send your stock diff back, I know kaaz makes a differential, I wish quaife made one, not sure if they are going to or not.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mase &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i havent upgraded a rear end in a s2k so im not sure on the installation procedures, but I know comptech makes Reinforced Differential but have a core, so you have to send your stock diff back, I know kaaz makes a differential, I wish quaife made one, not sure if they are going to or not. </TD></TR></TABLE>

One of the weak points in the diff are those bearing caps which comptech reinforces. IMO, it's one way to fix it but not the correct way if you're making big power, A GM 12 bolt or ford 9" should be the trick if you guys are drag racing.

There's nothing weak about the stock LSD unit, it's a torsen type, same type that Quaife makes and sells therefore it would be useless for qauife to sell something that is already in there. Kazz doesn't make the differential but the LSD unit. The differential is considered the entire assembly, ie pinion and ring gear, bearings, and the LSD unit.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vapor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

One of the weak points in the diff are those bearing caps which comptech reinforces. IMO, it's one way to fix it but not the correct way if you're making big power, A GM 12 bolt or ford 9" should be the trick if you guys are drag racing.

There's nothing weak about the stock LSD unit, it's a torsen type, same type that Quaife makes and sells therefore it would be useless for qauife to sell something that is already in there. Kazz doesn't make the differential but the LSD unit. The differential is considered the entire assembly, ie pinion and ring gear, bearings, and the LSD unit. </TD></TR></TABLE>

so what do u think would be the correct way to correct this for someone who isnt really into drag, more road racing type performance?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mugensport9 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

so what do u think would be the correct way to correct this for someone who isnt really into drag, more road racing type performance?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Don't shift hard or fast, it wont lower your lap times enough to warrant the abuse. And obviously don't side-step or dump the clutch. In stock power trim, all that is needed is an upgraded pressure plate. You can run the stock friction disk with no problem. Honda put a weak clutch on this car for a reason...b/c of the weak diff assembly/housing.

 

mase thanks for clearing this up. my cousin swears that a turbo setup can be just as reliable as a supercharged setup if it has the proper tuning. i believe him since hes been running his 400 whp+ ITR with no problems for the last 3 years.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Razor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">mase thanks for clearing this up. my cousin swears that a turbo setup can be just as reliable as a supercharged setup if it has the proper tuning. i believe him since hes been running his 400 whp+ ITR with no problems for the last 3 years. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Your cousin is exactly right.

Tuning, tuning, tuning....

 

Hey Mase i think the list of parts also needs to include:

Fuel pressure regulator (1:1) ~150
Boost controller ~ 40 to 400 depending on which type
Guages ~200-300
Also if you can get the EMS for 900 i'd like to order one from you
Fuel pump is optional ~129
Fittings ~100 for oil line and oil pan
Hoses +clamps(t-bolt) ~ 100

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by KYS2000 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hey Mase i think the list of parts also needs to include:

Fuel pressure regulator (1:1) ~150
Boost controller ~ 40 to 400 depending on which type
Guages ~200-300
Also if you can get the EMS for 900 i'd like to order one from you
Fuel pump is optional ~129
Fittings ~100 for oil line and oil pan
Hoses +clamps(t-bolt) ~ 100
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, you'd need some of those parts regardless if SC or Turbo,

but yes, ud' need atleast a boost gauge, unless you wanna be slick like me, and just have the CEL light come on if you over boost. its super sleeper.

boost controller, is built into the aem ems, all u need is the solenoid ($20), I actually bought my EMS for $800 used .

I used stock fuel pressure regulator and fuel pump on my integra, it was fine for 300 whp.

Oil pan fittings are including in the price of the oil lines listed above

hose and clamps are also part of the charge pipe costs

remember those were just examples of prices, im a good bargain hunter, so nothing is set in stone, but those are the prices ive found to be true if you look hard

good post though

 

Oil pan fittings are including in the price of the oil lines listed above

everyone do yourself a favor and use SS lines NOT rubber feed/return lines.

 

Yes, jack is absolutely right, Talk to Flamenco-T on the board, he sells complete oil fittings/lines of best quality.

 

I've been meaning to post a thank you to Mase for finally disspelling some obnoxious myths out there.

I agree with Mase's statements, and having had a turbo civic...... yes I can speak from experience, that jackson racing easy bake ovens (superchargers) stink and cause more problems then they are worth..... and while a turbo can be just as bad.. if they are setup correctly they will be extremely reliable and WILL produce more power than a supercharger....

 

Actually, I think Mase is creating some Myths of his own here but for the most part is making good suggestions.

If you can find a AEM EMS for $900, you are buying $250 below wholesale cost... Who are you stealing these from? Midnight autoparts? Including wideband and all the basic stuff you want, you are about $2000 lighter for the AEM EMS. Arguing otherwise is beating a dead horse, seriously. And you will definitely need a laptop computer!!!

The Vortech aftercooled SC costs a whopping $4200. And would be roughly $500 hundred dollars to install if you don't have basic mechanical knowledge. No tuning needed, works right out the box. I do recommend spending some time on a dyno with a wideband verifying everything is working though.

The largest expense he isn't shaping out here is the install and tuning. Most Authorized EMS shops will need 6-8 hours of shop time minimum to get the car running, much longer to get everything perfect. I strongly agree though, that an EMS is correct solution. VAFC's, EManage, etc. are joke band-aids for a turbo application on the S2000. Its great to encourage those who have minimal tuning knowledge, but setting up a stand-alone is way beyond the average home mechanic. After seeing all the ways folks screw up using a VAFC, I don't have a lot of faith in the average guy juggling hundreds of parameters or even knowing where to start with base maps.

The stock clutch and rear end are more than sufficient for a boosted application using stock internals. A failure in one of these components points to driver abuse, not an abundance of power. Cryo treating a differential case and installing stronger studs is only going to buy you time. More than one soul has succeeded in pushing the torsen out the back of a Comptech reinforced diff. The Kaaz unit offers no real advantages or reliablity over the stock torsen, and I'll argue this is a waste of money for those considering a replacement.

The addition of a FMIC has created a number of problems for FI'd S2000's. Owners who track their cars complain of elevated oil and coolant temps and occaisonally over heat... This in turn has lead to the death of several headgaskets or worse: engine failure. The problem is simple, an intercooler has been placed in front of the radiator. This reduces flow to the radiator and diminishes the ability of the system to disapate heat. Further, the end tanks block even more of the front opening. Long story short, you don't see many Turbo S2000's at the track... for very long at least. I spent some time under the hood of a Speedcraft Turbo charged last week and all of the troubles above are there out of the box.

On a high level I agree that once properly tuned, neither a supercharger or turbo would have a reliablilty edge over the other. BUT its a lot harder to piece together a reliable kit than it is to buy a package and tweak what isn't perfect.

A good resource for ideas or research are the boys over at Home Made Turbo. The two guys running the site tagged along with us for a track day last year and seem fairly knowledgeable (If not a little nuts...).

http://www.homemadeturbo.com

 

Myths, no, been there done it.

lets break down your post:

actually I bought my AEM EMS for $800. it was new in the package, but bought it from a kid who purchased it and never used it. average used price - 950. find a good deal, and bam, $900. Why spend 1300 on something that works just as good for 950? I have to have a laptop computer for engineering anyways. One can be had for easily 250-300

Go to EFIGuy's tuning 101 seminar, he knows he's **** and will teach you everything there is to know

My price break down is seriously realistic, ive done it numerous times not only purchasing this type of items for myself, but for other friends, customers, etc.


Cool, but you still dont make near as power as a turbo car


Well I dont agree with you here. I've tuned numerous numbers of cars w/ the ems, MOST, not all, but in the case of my car, i had my car up and running within an hour and actually drove it to Orlando within two hours. The EMS is not for sissy's, im a mechanical engineering student, so I have a good knowledge base on many things. In my post, i encouraged self install and self tuning, thats what I did, and I've installed probably 6 turbo kits, and tuned over a dozen cars w/ standalones. I havent taken any special classes, nor had God given me any special Gift, You just research thats all

Basically, if you dont know jackshit, its gonna cost you more, by why not make yourself worthy, learn it, get good deals, and make reliable power?

I'm not that knowledgable on this subject, only because I havent really looked into it. But I will say, a stock clutch wont last all that long (stock integra clutch only lasted 6 months on boost and i babied the **** out of it)

This is a very interesting topic you bring up. I'll be honest, i havent worked w/ many turbocharged s2000's first hand, mostly bseries,dseries, and H series, in every single application, ive never had any trouble with cooling. those from ranging 1.6-2.2 . even 1.8 bored to 1.98 L. Naturally the s2000 isnt like those motors, but I dont think the IC blocking the Radiator is the cause, but hey, i havent looked into it so i dont know


It takes me a couple weeks of searching for parts, not that big of deal, I've bought turbo kits before, and trust me, youd rather buy part by part of the better products on the market.


All in all, i love the post.....just dont like you calling my facts myths

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jerrypeterson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The addition of a FMIC has created a number of problems for FI'd S2000's. Owners who track their cars complain of elevated oil and coolant temps and occaisonally over heat... This in turn has lead to the death of several headgaskets or worse: engine failure. The problem is simple, an intercooler has been placed in front of the radiator. This reduces flow to the radiator and diminishes the ability of the system to disapate heat. Further, the end tanks block even more of the front opening. Long story short, you don't see many Turbo S2000's at the track... for very long at least. I spent some time under the hood of a Speedcraft Turbo charged last week and all of the troubles above are there out of the box.


</TD></TR></TABLE>

Speaking from first hand expirence, my Civic had a FMIC, and yes, when I drove the car HARD and then parked it at idle to cool it down...... it would overheat to the H if left alone....... however..... turn on the AC and in exactly 3 seconds, it would be back down to normal operating temp (according to the stock gauge)...
The problem probably could have been remedied with a FAL fan....... but the fence I went through beat that upgrade........

 

Wouldn't you think Turbo-charging the Civic with a D series or B series motor be a big difference as opposed to turbo-charging a F20c motor?

If it were that easy, people would've had more success with them IMO.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JMS JT &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Wouldn't you think Turbo-charging the Civic with a D series or B series motor be a big difference as opposed to turbo-charging a F20c motor?

If it were that easy, people would've had more success with them IMO.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nope, physically speaking, it may be a little harder to install the manifold and having to relocate oil filter and ****. its mostly because the motor has high compression, and there arent as many engine management solutions out there. you have a very small tuning window w/ high compression, people dont realize that. w/ b18bs and motors w/ low compression, you can get away w/ a fmu or vafc.

 

Also a misconception that most people have is that running too rich is not bad for your motor when it can be just as hazardous, this i didn't know til recently. I might have bad rings now because I was dumping lots of fuel on low boost in order not to run lean however I just might have "washed" my pistion rings with excess fuel not being combusted and thru the course of time with out proper management, ie standalone I may have ruined my rings just from running too rich, guess a compression and leak down test will tell. Just goes to show if you go FI especially turbo, nothing short of a stand alone with the s2000 is going to be sufficient. Even with the emanage there are still going to be drivablility issues with the car bucking and bogging. Stock is ecu is just too damn stubborn and self corrective.

 

you're exactly right, while the short term effects of being rich arent as near as bad as being lean, but long term carbon build up is shitty for the motor

 

Hey Mase could you pull some strings and maybe find me an EMS for 900? . I'm in dired need for one.