total of 3 pieces of some sorta positionable ducting i picked up at home depot that is hardcore and thick that wont impode under boost suction, cost $2.19 per piece, total project cost less that $10 including the metal epoxy - which u can see is a little drippy there on the filter pipe...

with the bumper on, the filter peeps from behind an opening on the bumper...needless to say, runs amazing on cool nights.

 

this is a customers car...... it gets a filter on the end. and a small piece of 3 inch tube between the 2 contectors.

 

good effort fabing it up, but im not sure it will benefit, the compressor just heats up the air before it goes through the IC

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mase &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">good effort fabing it up, but im not sure it will benefit, the compressor just heats up the air before it goes through the IC</TD></TR></TABLE>

Right, and I agree before with the "... compressor just heats up the air..." before I start. However, the charge density would be significantly lower when you are stuck in slow moving traffic. Take into consideration, you are barely moving in traffic, hood temps are high, and you hit the throttle. Your ambient temp is really high, which your turbo is breathing through. Your charge density is significantly lower (regardless of the turbo further decreasing this due to turbine temps), making your lag MUCH more noticable. You need to spin more, build more boost, and let your IC cool more in order to create the same amount of charge you would have received if you had cooler air from outside the vehicle. And if you are not moving all that quickly, your IC does not do that much for you.
It works the same way for FI as it does for NA... decrease the ambient temp, increase your charge, make more power.

my 2 coppers in the pot!

 

agreed, the turbine is drawing from cooler, more dense air from outside the engine compartment, meaning that their are more oxygen molecules per cubic foot inducted into the engine. Even though the turbo heats up the air still, their is physically more oxygen molecules being sucked in. Cool Mod...just make sure that epoxy doesn't flake off and get sucked in...

 

Has anybody really tested the benefits (if any) of placing the intake in a position to suck in cold air as opposed to underhood air? We need to see how much difference it actually makes, some figures to compare would be nice.

 

Air density aside, the rule of thumb is that one degree reduction in intake temp results in an equal drop in exhaust temp.

 

just run more boost

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B94Cast &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

It works the same way for FI as it does for NA... decrease the ambient temp, increase your charge, make more power.

my 2 coppers in the pot! </TD></TR></TABLE>

excactly....colder air - more power, at the same amount of boost.
why do people spend so much money on port and polish, ignition systems, good plug wires, etc....when they could just run more boost? because every little bit helps.

my car has a b16, and at 6psi runs identical to a buddy of mine that has a b18 gsr fully built running an fmax kit @ 13psi.

every little bit helps, and im all about picking up the free horsepower.

 

ive done the research and the datalogs on a turbo'd h22, and lets just say, I saw no difference in air temps from trying to use a cold air filter location to a hot air. that and the fact that I think it lost power due to the restriction of all the piping.

these were 60-100mph pulls. No noticable chance in temps.

after the gator game, ill try to dig up the datalog plots.

like i said before, if you are trying to get every single degree cooler possible, get the best IC.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SolidSpruce &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
why do people spend so much money on ignition systems, good plug wires, etc....when they could just run more boost?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

many people are putting down crazy numbers without upgraded ignition. with the exception of cars that are putting down ungodly amounts of power, most people who i see "spending so much money" on "good" plug wires are ricers.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SolidSpruce &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
my car has a b16, and at 6psi runs identical to a buddy of mine that has a b18 gsr fully built running an fmax kit @ 13psi.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

i hope this isn't meant to support ur more power compared to boost idea. there are so many more factors contributing to how one car runs compares to another other than just listing the engine and boost.

kudos on ur free hp, but i'm sure many people here have thought about the turbo cai at one time or another and in the end it just isn't worth watever supposed gains are netted

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mase &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">like i said before, if you are trying to get every single degree cooler possible, get the best IC. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree 100%. If you want cooler air, get a better i/c as that's what it's there for. I've heard the argument that if you have colder air to "start-off" with, you'll end up with colder air in the intake-manifold. I think this isn't true since the turbo will heat up the air to xxx amount anyway.

 

I would think that the cold air would help, but only marginally if noticeable at all, the IC is going to do more for the intake temp than filter placement. Add the 2 together to see the best benefit.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by R6Elmo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

... I think this isn't true since the turbo will heat up the air to xxx amount anyway.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i dont think thats accurate physics, if air comes in at 60 degrees F, and hits a hot turbo at 200 degrees F and comes out at lets say 180 degrees F just for an example, 100 degree F air hitting a 200 degree F turbo will not also come out at 180....

ps- these temps are just for example only, i dont know that those are the correct temps that turbos and air and compression heating lead to, im just spitting out common sense analogies

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mase &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">these were 60-100mph pulls. No noticable chance in temps.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That sounds about right - basically once you are moving really the whole cold air idea pretty much goes out the window because there becomes less differentiation between ambient and underhood temps. Other than helping to avoid heat soak while idleing, you might as well just put a filter on the turbo inlet.

 

if thats the case, everyone who ever bought a cold air intake like an AEM or something for their N/A setup better go get their money back, because it was all bs and lies about them making more power...if at 60-100mph its all the same whether underhood or not.....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SolidSpruce &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if thats the case, everyone who ever bought a cold air intake like an AEM or something for their N/A setup better go get their money back, because it was all bs and lies about them making more power...if at 60-100mph its all the same whether underhood or not.....</TD></TR></TABLE>

i think you're wrong.

you're forgetting that the IC cools the charge temp to near ambient.

if the charge temp is 140F after the turbo or 145F after the turbo, its going to be cooled to near 90F regardless if the air temp is 85F, given an effecient intercooler.

i think the additional restriction can *raise* pre-intercooled charge temps by making the compressor work harder to draw in and compress the air.

a turbocharger prefers a "short ram" intake over a much longer "cold air intake". if anyone has any substantiated evidence to the contrary, please share it.

also, part of the benefits seen in a CAI in an NA car come from the length of the CAI "tuning" the standing waves in the intake manifold to boost torque in a given RPM range. in our cars, the turbo is ramming the air into the engine, and the standing waves can be damned.

now, looking at the pics, i doubt what has been done will noticably/measurably hurt performance on most of our cars.

 

Lets not let this thread get shitty, Here is my proof that the cold air style intake has no benefit over hot air style.

The test vehicle is a Prelude w/ 60-1. intercooled.

P.S. If you notice the coolant temps are the same, thus the car was operating at the near same conditions on each runs, only change was turbo inlet.

 

good info mase. it seems that if there is anything to work on is the upper charge pipe and keeping it insulated to prevent heatsoak from underhood temps. i notice that my cold side of my fmic will be nice and cool, but the upper charge pipe gets really hot from the underhood temps being so high. i'm experimenting with different ways to wrap and insulate my upper chargepipe. hopefully i'm not wasting my time.

 

If cold air doesn't help then why do dragsters put the turbo at the front of the car? I'm sure their liquid/air i/c is more than effcient too. True that the extra piping to the filter may slow it down...but a foot or two I can't see being that noticable. I've also seen plenty of "cold air boxes" on turbo cars.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sporkcrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If cold air doesn't help then why do dragsters put the turbo at the front of the car? </TD></TR></TABLE>

to get the highest possible air pressure at the compressor inlet, which makes the turbo work less to compress the air.

its also often a convenient spot.

True that the extra piping to the filter may slow it down...but a foot or two I can't see being that noticable. [/QUOTE]

agreed.

 

CHARGE DENSITY...it doesn't matter that the air will be heated up to the same temp, their is actually physically MORE AIR being sucked in. MORE AIR equal MORE BOOM. it might be trivial at higher speeds, but every little bit helps, and it prolly does feel food down in the low end...

why do you guys think turbo cars behave so much differently in hot and cold weather...this isn't rocket science here...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WakeSpliter &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">CHARGE DENSITY...it doesn't matter that the air will be heated up to the same temp, their is actually physically MORE AIR being sucked in. MORE AIR equal MORE BOOM. it might be trivial at higher speeds, but every little bit helps, and it prolly does feel food down in the low end...

why do you guys think turbo cars behave so much differently in hot and cold weather...this isn't rocket science here...</TD></TR></TABLE>

yeah thats all fine and good, but the universe we all live in, there is a phenomenon called pumping losses, which you're ignoring. try sucking air through a straw, its not easy to breathe just through a straw. now make the straw 3" in diameter but try to suck 400CFM through it. thats how your turbo feels.

you guys are arguing its better to make the turbo work harder to suck in air, as long as its cooler air, and i think, in a general sense, thats a bad idea. but i have no way of quantifying it and the performance difference is negligible and people are going to wanna argue this til the cows come home so i'm done.

 

It's just like putting a filter on the turbo versus running without one. Notice how the drag racers don't use filters ...

The filter "chokes" the turbo but lets the engine get clean air

 

inlet to my compressor housing it about 2 3/4in so a 3" pipe for it to breath through is hardly restrictive - or if became restrictive wouldnt be the issue, because the compressor housing has now become the restriction with its little pretty mouth