I need to prove to my mom that autocrossing isn't very dangerous. She thinks that i will flip my car and then the insurance won't cover it and i'll be screwed. How dangerous do you guys think autocrossing is and do you know anybody who has flipped their civic doing it?

 

There are pictures floating around of a Saturn on two wheels...someone will have them.

It's not likely to happen, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

 

well i have h&r sport springs and kyb agx shocks. Do you think I could flip the car at the low speeds of autocrossing?

 

If you're on street tires, the only way you'll flip the car is if you hit a curb(assuming the pavement is decent at your region, large cracks could also cause this).

Simply put, you won't be able to flip it from the adhesion of your street tires only, you have to strike something. Which in my experience is pretty hard to do in autocross, but not impossible(one or two cars a year hit stuff at low speeds, mostly to loosing control and trying to save it over and over). If you spin just put both feet in(brake and clutch to the floor, hard). You'll be fine.

 

I think it was back in 92 or 93 at a Pro Solo in Jacksonville, FL. I was running my EP 86 Civic on "stock" torsion bars and slicks. We ran at the Mayport Naval base on a concrete helicopter pad. It was the grippiest surface I've ever been on. In 2 back to back right handers I brought it up on 2 wheels and road it straight that way for a while before dropping it down. The course workers told me they got a great view of the bottom of my car. If I screwed up and turned the wheel a tad to the right I'd have been over.

Tom Lombardo did flip his EP Civic due to a compressed suspension.

If your suspension doesn't have enough bump in it anything is possible. One thing that many people overlook when lowering a car.

 

Although unlikely, sometimes **** just happens. Whether it is a combination of the wrong mods, or poorly chosen ones or even super sticky tires combined with a totally stock somewhat mushy suspension, sometimes accidents are inevitable.


This happened right in front of me for my first run of a regional event a while back. It was explained as a combination of sticky tires (I know Azenis are sticky but, this sounds ridiculous) and poor driver skill and or reaction, (this I tend to agree more with.)

The driver got out with No injury. The car was totalled, and from what I remember, his insurance did Not cover it at all.

Needless to say, I didn't drive as fast or near my fullest that day, (I believe I placed dead last.) But, I sure did wake up and realize that any form of motorsports has it's risks. You must keep a level head, not drive beyond your car or your abilities, and be able to accept all the risks that you may encounter.

Can it happen? Obviously yes.

Does it happen often? Few and Far between.

Taking your time and learning how drive your car and control it well is Invaluable and doing this in a controlled environment with help close bye is many times safer than just taking a spin to the local mini-mart for a pack of smokes or a 6-pack.


A.

 

Where was that event? I think I know those people...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1GreyTeg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">or even super sticky tires combined with a totally stock somewhat mushy suspension</TD></TR></TABLE>

2 Autocrosses ago, I had a few people tell me I got 2 wheels off the ground. The camera guy tried to get a pic of it, but only got me with 1 wheel off.

I have a 91 sentra se-r with victoracers, and stock suspension. Fun stuff.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I need to prove to my mom that autocrossing isn't very dangerous. She thinks that i will flip my car </TD></TR></TABLE>

When I gave my mom the first few (and only!) autox runs ever some years ago (she hasn't set foot inside the car again as a passenger in autox), she was quite genuinely scared and very strongly believed she would fly out the window during left hand turns. The thought of flipping the car didn't have the chance to cross her mind yet. From then on, she’s very happy to just watch from the outside.

 

A rollover is quite possible but very rare. It takes a combination of a car with a high center of gravity, crappy or worn out suspension/shocks, some sticky tires and a driver determined to make the gate at any cost no matter how badly out of control the car is.

That's exactly what happened at one of our events just a couple of weeks ago to a driver of a Suzuki Swift. The course was a replica of the 2002 Nationals North Course. Perfectly smooth pavement on a government automotive research facility (PMG Center). The driver lost it in the 6 cone slalom on the backend of the course. Went way too fast entering the slalom, got crossed up by the 2nd cone. Continued making corrections. By around the 4th cone the car flipped on the roof, slid for 50 feet or so then rolled on it's side. Thankfully, the driver got out without a scratch. The car was totalled in pretty much the same way the Focus above.

Not trying to scare you or something, but it does happen, if rarely. It's very car dependent. Logically, a CRX or an EF/EG Civic would be much tougher to flip than an Echo... What kind of Civic you are planning to auto-x?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> She thinks that i will flip my car and then the insurance won't cover it and i'll be screwed. ?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Almost all insureaces will not cover any event that is competion or a timed event so your mom is rigght if you something, somebosy else or a flip, you either may be denied coverage or covered then dropped.

 

OK, time for some damned lies, better known as statistics. I have attended appx. 100 autocrosses with appx 100 competitors each. No rollovers.

So 0 in 10,000 chance per driver per event in my world. Anyone who has seen one care to state their odds? The poster of this thread could add up and say, "mom, according to the autocross experts, there is about a 1 in 100,000 chance of a rollover. You're more likely to flip the car on the way to work" or some such nonsense

 

You're more likely to wreck your car going TO and FROM the autocross event than when you're in it.

 

Have your mom go to some events to check it out. Autox really is very safe and a great way to learn car control. Once she sees the events for herself, I cant see any reason for her to say no to autox'ing.

My mom went to a few of my autox's and was initially shocked at the sounds of screeching tires and whatnot, but she got over it. I actually convinced my mom to go for a ride with me around Sebring full! The hardest thing was getting her to put the helmet on, haha. It was some great bonding time though, she put her life in my hands which I thought was really cool. Granted, I was only driving 60% with her in the car but that still scared the living hell out of her.

 

I've never seen a rollover in 6 years.

But I fully believe that autocrossing and racing school saved my life. Story time...

Middle of senior year of high school. At this point I had attended quite a few autocrosses and a teen driving school at Mid-Ohio, knew reasonable car control. On my way to school, a dump truck is coming towards me on a narrow road. I inch over to give it enough room, drop a wheel off, pull it back on, narrowly miss the dump truck. Heart beating fast, but no biggie. I get to school, and I found out that a good friend of mine (with no driver training) was killed on the way to school in an almost identical accident. Dropped a wheel off the road, pulled it back on too fast and didn't know what to do to correct, lost control, got run over by a dump truck. How eerie is that? I prayed to the auto-x gods after that one.

 

I've been autocrossing for 18 years, and to summarize, rolling a car is rare, but it does happen on occassion. Usually due to a combination of high CG, sticky tires, and suspension issues, all in concert with a driver who didn't give it up when they should have.

Last one (at NE Natioanl tour at Devens in 6/00) I witnessed the whole thing start to upside down had all the above ingredients. HS Mercury Tracer (88-91 Mazda 323 clone) started to get assy in a many cone slalom. Driver kept chasing it, getting progressively looser and tippier. After about 6 swings, and a final 135 degree spin, it was either going to stop or go over, both which it did. Besides being a tall car, with a narrow track and positive camber and sticky tires, it had shocks of indeterminate origin and a driver who if he had done the "when in a spin, both feet in" would have just slid to a stop.

In those 18 years and probably more than 2000 runs I have only goten up on 2 once, in my EP Civic on slicks, which happened to have a blown left front shock that I didn't know about. Happened at Nationals at Topeka in a big right hand sweeper with a dip/bump in the middle. Suspension bottomed, roll center went wacky and the right side popped up at least 30 degrees. Remembered to steer downhill, and had a soft landing. That is my only time, and I've driven a lot of tall cars hard (Omni's, 3rd Gen Civics, and an A3 Jetta).

The only Hondas I've ever known to go over were 1st or 2nd gen Civics. Cars that do have some history of going turtle easily are VW's if the suspension needs attention, the 323/Tracer twins, Focus, and the all-time rollover champ, E30 BMW's(personally seen 4).

What you need to do is convince the parrental unit that it will teach you skills behind the wheel that simply can't be bought. I simply don't have any panic situations on the road anymore. Chit happens, and there are enough driving tricks in my bag that I can get out of them. I've avoided an infinite number of accidents from driving and car control skills learned autocrossing, driving everything from the my daily driver to the wife's SUV, to even my RV towing the race car on a trailer behind. Like previously suggested, bring her to an event to see how it is run, and maybe even have her to talk an event organizer to prove to her that her boy isn't going to create and meet mayhem in a parking lot. Hell, even get her to drive. She might learn some good accident avoidance skills.

Good luck. BTW, what part of the world are you in? We might know a particular Club or person we could point you in the direction of. Here int he NYC metro area, some groups put on tamer events which are more suitable for newbies than others.

 

I was at an autocross in Montreal a few weeks ago where a car rolled over. This was on a perfectly flat paved skidpad. Basically it was a combination of a car with a high CG (Geo Metro or similiar) fitted with race tires and a stock suspension. The driver got squirrely in a long slalom and then probably lifted at the wrong time.

In the last six years that I've been doing autox I've only seen one other incident and that was someone rolling into a lamppost after they froze. I've heard of a Rabbit that used to run in the club that would occassionally run around on two wheels though

 

You're more likely to hit a deer than flip your car at an autocross.

Matt&lt;--has hit a deer, but in 8 years of autocrossing has never seen a car flip on course.

 

I've been autocrossing for over 12 years now, and I have only seen a few car damaging accidents at autocrosses. I've only seen one rollover (a Focus with very poorly tuned custom shocks and Hoosiers - basically the rear would jack up during slaloms due to way too much compression damping). I have seen cars hit poles (one hard, several minor). I've seen a few hit curbs and take out suspension. I've seen a few get damaged by rough runoff areas (ditches). This year's Nationals is the first time I've seen two cars hit. All in all, I've probably seen less than 10 autocross wrecks in 12 years @ 25 events/yr = 300 events. It can happen, but it's very rare. I've seen way more accidents on my way to autocrosses, and I've never seen anyone get seriously injured.

Here's my simple rule of thumb for weighing the risks. If I wouldn't feel comfortable driving the car on the street without collision insurance, then I wouldn't race it. The risk is less with autocrossing, but it is still a risk, so I personally would have to think hard about bringing out a car I owed a lot of money on.

I'm not trying to scare you. I love this sport, and think it probably saved my life. I was a horribly irresponsible street racer before I found autocrossing. Hanging out with autocrossers WILL teach you that there is an appropriate place for racing, and it allows you somewhere to get your 'speed fix' without risking people's lives. THE VALUE OF THIS LESSON FAR OUTWEIGHS THE RISK OF DAMAGE TO ANY CAR! Autocrossing also teaches car control and dramatically improves your ability to respond to unexpected road situations, particularly skids.

-Chris

 

I probably have one of the highest cg autocross vehicles of anyone here (98 Toyota Tacoma extended cab) and as far as i know I haven't gotten it on two wheels yet - though the body roll is kind fun. She slides and bucks around on roller coaster style slolams (the ones that go up and down as well as side to side), but I've never felt like she actually wanted to go over when pushing it 10/10th. And she's a stock height Tacoma with stock springs (dampers upgraded to Bilstein HD's), somewhat sticky BFGoodrich KDW tires, and no rear anti-roll bar. I now have Falken Azenis on and will be custom installing a rear 3/4" ARB just to have more piece of mind with the far stickier Falken Azenis. The first autocross with the Azenis (and hopefully rear ARB) will be October 5th, and I will be taking it easy until I get a feel for how she grips and rolls in the corners. Should be tons of fun once I feel comfortable again and give me a better shot at 1st place in STF class against those pesky civics, foci, and MP5's.

 

I almost flipped my car over....



I was trying to get into good position for the slalom and did a fast jive left then a Hard right.. and I lifted, big time. the picture is at the very start of the lift.. Most thought I was going over and people were already running over, but I turned out of it and contiued the slalom and made it through the course.

I checked the tires after (hoosiers) and they were scufed almost all the way to the edge of the rim... It was scary but fun at the same time.. I have no plans of doing this again.

_nate


Modified by Nate at 10:37 PM 9/28/2003

 

well it looks like i can't talk my mom into letting me do **** with autocrossing until i turn 18, but oh well i was already signed up to go and i'm gonna be autocrossing in exactly 10 hours ....i don't think i'll have to worry too much about flipping the car. I have a 96-98 civic on slipstreams with 205/50/15 kuhmo ecsta supra tires which aren't really too sticky anymore because they are getting somewhat worn down. I will be getting some azenis soon though . I also have kyb agx shocks and h&r sport springs so i think my CG should be low enough that i shouldn't have any problems. Oh well i guess i'll have to wait a few months until i can autocross without going behind my mom's back

 

To Bad

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1GreyTeg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Although unlikely, sometimes **** just happens. Whether it is a combination of the wrong mods, or poorly chosen ones or even super sticky tires combined with a totally stock somewhat mushy suspension, sometimes accidents are inevitable.


This happened right in front of me for my first run of a regional event a while back. It was explained as a combination of sticky tires (I know Azenis are sticky but, this sounds ridiculous) and poor driver skill and or reaction, (this I tend to agree more with.)

The driver got out with No injury. The car was totalled, and from what I remember, his insurance did Not cover it at all.

Needless to say, I didn't drive as fast or near my fullest that day, (I believe I placed dead last.) But, I sure did wake up and realize that any form of motorsports has it's risks. You must keep a level head, not drive beyond your car or your abilities, and be able to accept all the risks that you may encounter.

Can it happen? Obviously yes.

Does it happen often? Few and Far between.

Taking your time and learning how drive your car and control it well is Invaluable and doing this in a controlled environment with help close bye is many times safer than just taking a spin to the local mini-mart for a pack of smokes or a 6-pack.


A.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I still to this day find some glass on the course from that rollover...

 

When I almost flipped as you can see above (red bimmer) I Forgot that I gave my dad a ride as gift for my dad for father's day and I almost flipped it... kinda freaky, but he thought it was fun! ha!

-nate