First, may I say that I enjoy and benefit from every HPDE that I attend (NASA or otherwise) and while the classroom and in car instruction may vary from curriculum and presentation at different HPDE's, I always feel that I am progessing. Although I may not immediately be comfortable my results or with pushing myself to higher limits, I do eventually gain the confidence and meet the mental challenge.

I also just returned from the NASA Northeast DE at Watkin's Glen. Safely, Happily, Satisfied and a bit more objective than before. Maybe I have opened my eyes a bit more, maybe I learned by others mistakes (and some serious ones at that.) Let me say though, that I felt this was a very well run event and by far my favorite thus far.

Suffice to say the track was imposing and scary but, I digress.

At this event I feel that I gained a tremendous amount of knowledge and support from my instructor, (who shall remain nameless at this point.) The key thing besides good solid instruction was the use of the "Chatterbox" a tandem radio communication device that I'm sure many of you are acquainted with.

Now, my car is loud but, by far not the loudest and in the past, even when it was totally stock, I had issues with hearing and understanding my instructors direction.

This time though, on a very challenging and demanding course at the highest speeds that I have yet experienced, I was able to clearly communicate and felt much easier that I had felt at other courses in the past. Stangely enough, I felt that this ease of communication to be the major contribution that led to my progression.

So, here's the question: Why is it that ALL instructors don't already have or provide, or are provided with an easy, cheap communication device such as this which is So Very helpful for these types of education?

I recently posted a query about communication here in RRAX, and the Chatterbox in particular came up as the "one" to choose. I didn't purchase it at that time, (which was my own mistake and I since have ordered it.) And several of you even linked sites to it and others as well as listing others that had problems or issues. Thanks.

So, I proposed this radio at a class session, and while not met with opposition, was more provided with why's; too expensive for NASA to provide, may get damaged, instructor might forget, etc. all not really the kind of answers that I expected or even accept. Another peer mentioned that He'd like to see Every Instructor required to purchase one or provided with one and use it at every HPDE. I agree to an extent with this, I agree that Instructors need it for clear instruction but, Not that they be required to provide them. (This will clearly be an argument.)

I personally feel that there should be a budget or provision ammended to NASA for the 2004 season to provide for these types of Inexpensive devices ($60. is Not expensive in my eyes in a sport that many times requires spending 5 times as much just to get on the track.) I am on the other hand totally unaware of how much NASA already provides for funding these events and am not trying to be a ***** or arrogant. I am also Not rich and don't want to be misconstrued, Hell if I was rich I wouldn't be driving an Integra, I'd have that NSX.

As much as this is a question that I'd like explored, I also feel that this would make their educational events THAT much more for all levels, Especially totally green people interested but, really needing the instruction and encouragement.

We all know that there is a tight budget, sometimes non existant. And that the current economy is not exactly at it's pinnacle but, for the price of or less than those nifty Motorola radios that we use at every Autocross or HPDE, you could also have better communication for instruction, (again especially for the Novices.)

Hand signals were also proposed to me as an alternative, and while this is an option does Not encourage nearly as much as the tone of voice or clarity in speach during conversation.

Yelling and straining to hear are almost impossible when competing with unmuffled AC Cobras, Booklers Civic and whatnot. (Just trying to hear my friend in the advanced group while I was his passenger as the Cobra blared from behind and it's noise resonated on the metal walls, to entirely deafening next to us to the next turns 10 and 11, I just gave up trying and helplessly tried fo cover my ears over my helmet with my gloved hands.)

And remember this is coming from someone that has seen the difference and has just now ordered his own comunication. I would certainly Not be opposed to add $5. or $10. to my membership fee to help others.


Anton

PS thank you NASA, this was a great DE and My favorite thus far despite all the imposing blue and tire walls.

 

A Chatterbox system is much closer to $150 (or more) once you buy two headsets to go with it. Even with the typical group buy, they are still well over $100 for a complete system. The Nadys are cheaper, but won't last more than one summer of rigorous use by multiple instructors and students. Just an FYI.

I ordered a Chatterbox and love it as a student. My instructors who have used one also love them. I agree with everything you said about the benefits of an intercom system on the track, but I wouldn't go requiring instructors to own one without also requiring students to foot the bill for their third or half of the cost. Besides, if all of us *students* bought a system now, we would have them availale to us when it's our turn to instruct someday. Just something to consider.

-Adam

 

It would be easier for students who feel the need for this communication tool to purchase it themselves, because some people might be fine without it. Maybe it could be recommended by NASA, but if there is anyone that doesn't want/need the chatterbox, then it's likely that they will have to pay the increased cost for DEs for those that do use the chatterbox.

For yourself, why not buy a chatterbox and bring it with you to all the HPDEs that you do and use it with your instructor?

 

I agree with all of you in a sense.. a Chatter box is a huge advantage in the goal of steepening the learning curve. I could not imagine, trying to learn on the track with out the two way comm. devices.

The good ones are about $200 or more from the instructors I have talked to...at another club that does performance driving the saying goes, Buy the $200 one or you will end up spending more if buy the cheap ones, since they break. And this club has the instructors pay for their own devices.

And as the third guy mentioned... why not buy your own...???

 

I agree, it would be great if ALL instructors would use something like this. One of my instructors last year had one and it was sooooooooo much better than yelling at each other and saying "WHAT DID YOU SAY!" about 10 times per lap. If I was an instruct it would be the 1st thing I would buy for sure.

 

I can't imagine why we would expect the instructors to pay for our fun. It's not like they are getting rich risking their butts in our right seats.

Kirk

 

There's a couple things to take into consideration about this:
1) Instructors are volunteers, they get no payment for their services other than food, and track time (at least in my region).
2) You can never guarantee that the same instructors will be at each event.


So it would be silly to require the instructor to purchase it since he/she is getting no monetary compensation for their services, the purchase would come straight out of their pocket. The NASA region couldn't supply them for every instructor since there's no guarantee that instructor will be back again.

 

I have worked with a club that required comm devices. But they had loaners if I remember right. Mazda Club I think.

My old car was actually so loud that even the communicator didn't work. When Karl instructed Renee they worked out hand signals and it actually worked very well. Both were happy at the end of the weekend.

 

I'm not saying it should be required for them to have one. I'm just saying if they really want to be an effective teacher they should get one, because it really is a BIG help. If I ever become an instructor I would get one for sure. In fact I have been thinking about getting one anyway.

 

This is a subject that our region has been discussing since our instructor clinics in February. We will be doing a group purchase on this type of device (may not be chatterbox, but same type of communication devices) with our instructors. We will also be purchasing a few as a region to allow new instructors to get up to speed. This will not be a mandatory device for 2004, but I can tell you that I believe most of our current instructors either have, or will be purchasing one. I fully agree with the benefits, and this was one of the first suggestions our instructors had in February when asked, "What could we do to make our program better for our HPDE drivers".

See you in 2004!

LM

Great to hear you have a good time at Watkins Glen. What a great track, and a good group from Northeast to run with. I can only speak for the OH/IN region, but believe the other regions have done group purchases in the past and will continue to help support their instructors with this and many other ideas.

 

If you want to be a good instructor...you should have your own communicator. Period. If you can't bring yourself to spend the hundred bucks on a communicator to make yourself a better instructor, you're either really broke (which does happen), or you're probably instructing for the wrong reasons. IMO.

That said...you CAN instruct without a communicator. I've been in cars (like Catch 22 describes) where no communicator could possibly be heard over the engine. In that event, it is the responsibility of the instructor to define, before they hit the track, a communication method via hand signals. This is a lesson Scott and Renee taught me that weekend and the whole hand signal thing has bled over into my other instructing.

 

One could also say that if you really want to learn how to drive well as a student, you'll plan for the long-haul and spend the money on an intercom system for yourself. That way, you can be sure you have one at your disposal and don't need to rely on someone else to bring one and also foot the bill. Perhaps NASA (or name your other favorite track group) should make it a rule that along with a helmet and a car in good, reliable condition, students must bring their own intercom system, too. Sort of like bringing a pencil and paper to class. How ya like them apples?
-Adam

 

I am ALL FOR requiring instructors have communicators. If you're broke, you shouldn't be driving on track anyways.

Our local club (THSCC), which does 4 schools a year, does state that communicators are required, but the "rule" is not enforced. I think any club that requires them should have a loaner pool much like NASA does with transponders. Take a deposit for about what they are worth.

 

Can somebody provide a link to a good website for all of the said communication equipment???

 

http://street-bikes.ridegear.c...store

Nady (works/cheap/does not last long)
Chatterbox (works better/is not cheap/does last longer)

I have switched to hand signals/yelling. I always ask if the car is loud and if the student wants a earpiece/mic in the helmet with them.

If the student can't hear me as well.. I use more hand signals (you must explain the signals before you get on track at speed).

No complaints yet.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mityVR6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">One could also say that if you really want to learn how to drive well as a student, you'll plan for the long-haul and spend the money on an intercom system for yourself. -Adam</TD></TR></TABLE>

You're certainly not the only one who shares this opinion in here, but it makes absolutely no sense to me. The people that need it the most are the brand new students. A group like NASA, who is hoping to make money off the continued business of these people should have an interest in seeing that they have as positive an experience as possible.

A well-functioning communicator is obviously an advantage on the track - and since many (most?) instructors choose not to buy them for whatever reason, it would be to the advantage of the organization to either require them, or furnish them. Personally, I have only had one instructor ever who had his own communicator (with him) - and it didn't work half the time. I had one other who borrowed one for a session or two, and that's it...

I don't understand it, and I don't like it... in fact, I'm a little bitter about some of the instructors who were content to sit in the passenger's seat without saying a word all weekend. I know I'm ranting now, but this is the reason I stopped carrying an instructor. I'd rather have noone with me than someone who isn't teaching me anything.

 

Phillip (Backmarker) used an intercom and hand signals (which were explained prior to leaving the pit), but the intercom was on the fritz and worked maybe half the time. The hand signals were very helpful though, as often times there wasn't much that needed to be said than "Get on the brakes NOW!" or something similar.

 

I ordered an expensive chatterbox even before the first time I took the instructer clinic and started instructing.
The (few) instructors I have had in the past that have used them have been my best instruction experience.

Communication is paramount in on-track instruction. It is already challenging to effectively communicate the exact right message, at the exact right time, in a clear and concise way. Any tool that helps this communication should be utilized.
There was talk in NASA-VA about requiring all instructors to have them, but I dont think that ever went through.

There are some good threads on this in the nasaracing.net forums under the instructor section.

 

I've ridden with numerous instructors, and must say that I learned a lot more from the ones that had a communications device.

I'd like to see some sort of deal between NASA and instructors, maybe where they go 50/50 on the payment of it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1GreyTeg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So, here's the question: Why is it that ALL instructors don't already have or provide, or are provided with an easy, cheap communication device such as this which is So Very helpful for these types of education?</TD></TR></TABLE>

That might be a lot to ask of your instructors. Many times it's hard enough to get instructors to show up, let alone forcing them to spend an extra $60 for the communicator. It would seem like a waste to require the students to get them, since it would require the purchase of a lot more units than would be necessary. Though $60 isn't much, it's a few thousand when you multiply that out over the number of units that would have to be purchased.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yelling and straining to hear are almost impossible when competing with unmuffled AC Cobras, Booklers Civic and whatnot. </TD></TR></TABLE>

What?!? You think my car is loud?


Matt

 

Good thread.

I have a handful of HPDE's under my belt. I drive a Miata so with the top down and helmets on it can be kind of hard to communicate. To top it off, at one event I had a very soft spoken instructor who refused to raise his voice...so I spent half my time driving with my head bent right...

Then, I went to a PCA event where my instructor had one of these communications devices. I've since been seriously considering purchasing one of my own just because of the situation with my car.

I could see where this would be of benefit even in an enclosed car - hearing/talking through a full face helmet can be difficult. Figuring out who should pay for it though can be tricky.

- Mark

 

Wait, wait, sorry to get OT, but a PCA group LET you into an HPDE? Every one I've seen has stated in the registration form "Porsches ONLY".

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sscguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Wait, wait, sorry to get OT, but a PCA group LET you into an HPDE? Every one I've seen has stated in the registration form "Porsches ONLY".</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have done schools with, and instructed for, several PCA groups despite never owning a Porsche. It depends on the particular chapter, but many are open to other brands.

Matt

 

PCA allows other cars on track if they have no other Porsche owners who wish to attend or if you are an instructor

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by speedracer33 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

That might be a lot to ask of your instructors. Many times it's hard enough to get instructors to show up, let alone forcing them to spend an extra $60 for the communicator. It would seem like a waste to require the students to get them, since it would require the purchase of a lot more units than would be necessary. Though $60 isn't much, it's a few thousand when you multiply that out over the number of units that would have to be purchased.

What?!? You think my car is loud?


Matt</TD></TR></TABLE>


I knew this topic would be controversial and I by no means have the Only opinion or all the answers but, I feel I got a great deal more out of my instruction with the device as opposed to without it.

The device sweetens the learning curve tremendously and definitely builds confidence. I'd think that Novices would benefit the most as well as be more likely to initially sign up or even return.

And YES Matt your car is LOUD But, I like it, I like it... The Cobra was totally obnoxious.

Funny how some of the early posters clearly didn't read my entire post, sorry if I rambled and made it boring or intimidating to read... It was all fresh in my mind and I actually thought about it for a whole day after the DE before I decided to post.

I am only trying to think of benefits here and to help those that feel more intimidated but, still care to try it out. I also understand that this is truly NOT for everyone and that there are different levels of commitment.

I fully realize the fear level and natural self preservation that the mind induces. I work hard to overcome these and feel completely elated when I can realize the difference and Really drive to my best abilities.

Again, I am not trying to create any negative feelings, I am just sharing my opinion of what I really believe made a difference.

For those who didn't get it the first time I posted it, I already investigated these devices Before I drove this event, and as Soon as I got home after my experience, Ordered it right up.