Ok,

I dyno'd last Saturday and was having problems getting this plot scanned. Scanner is on the blink, so I had to scan twice and past the top and bottom of my plot together... weird, I know. But I got it pretty close to matching up by cutting and pasting in photoshop.



Here's my setup:

- '00 itr b18c5

- aem cai

- toda spec b cams

- toda cam gears (set at +4 deg. int, 0 deg. exh)

- toda valve spring set

- portflow Ti retainers

- using borrowed nab20c5's toda header (thanks eric!)

- apex-i v-afc


I dyno'd open header with a wideband o2. The entire rpm range was ~13:1 (a/f ratio) the whole time. I had vtec crossover set at 6200 for the first (and best run). That is the red one...

dyno run 6 (in blue) was where I added +5% fuel across the board and lowered vtec cross over to 5800... You can see I lost ~5whp peak and even more across the board... I guess that was too rich, although it was still at 13:1.

Bone stock on this same dyno I made 159-160 whp. With a change to synthetic (~+2 - +3) and aem cai (~+2 - +3) I made 166 whp.

Now how are other guys getting ~10-20 whp out of similar setups?

Is there something being left out by others?

underdrive pulley's? ecu swap's? tuning? cam gear settings? exhausts? higher compression?

Questions? Comments? Criticism?

This is definitely not a drop-in solution to make power... But then we all knew that, right?


.....fixed. Thanks tommy_gunns and strng1dah!




[Modified by Black R, 10:51 AM 8/16/2001]

 

Photopoint no worky..............

 

Get rid of the CAI for a short stack, for starters.....

 

Get your exhaust hooked up or run at least some sort of tailpipe and then go back to the dyno.

 

Kenny, you need a case o breakfast jacks and the help of a certain tuner on here...eheh.
You have a dip in the low rpm range i didnt have after jack tuned, but mine didnt have it like that before tho.
I think it has potential tho, get jack to on hand tune it soem this weekend...
LATES

 

everyone repeat after me all at once: compression, compression, compression

Plus Listen to what Dave said...

 

Compression helps, but with his current compression he should be able to
make another 15hp relatively easily. I've already explained possible
solutions to bring up the power a bit.

Not to dispute Dave, but based on my experience, every car I have tested made
much more power open header than with a full exhaust. On average 5-10 whp
more.

 

Here you go

 

I agree with all these guys as tuning is definitely needed. Also, what type of exhaust are you running? The reason I ask is that removing the stock bottlenecks from my exhaust made a huge difference, even with stock cams. Thanks Dave! Below is my most recent plot, which was accomplished while you were up here in Charlotte. From your list, it looks like we're running close to the same setup except for the catback as I have the Racing Medallion. (Eric's old header was a Toda, right?) It will be good to compare once my cams/gears/valvetrain have been installed and dyno tested. See you guys this weekend!

 

I would have to say mess around with the timing and overlap of the cams a little.. And some compression would help like everone else has said..The Toda B and C's aren't just a drop in and BAM 25+ Hp off of the Bat...On the other hand the Toda A's would give you good power but would fall off up top..and they are also more user friendly ...But I think you'll be able to get more power with a few more times at the Dyno Good luck and keep us posted on what you gain and were

 

First thing to remember is Dyno's are not all the same so you can have a +/-5 whp error right there. Know anyone that dyno'd on the same dyno? COmpare to their numbers. I say that cause the Dyno in Nashville I made 168 Bone stock and 171.4 with an AEM. Seems like a lot compared to your numbers.

Trey

 

I believe a tuned length tailpipe will get you the most power, versus running the header open (nothing after the collector).

 

It is probably just tuning - I would also not assume that what works for others will work for you. For example, most people are making power by advancing the timing to 18 degrees or so - For me, I made more power by backing it off. I currently only run 14 degrees of timing. I gained nearly 4hp by going from 18 to 14. You just have to test and see what works. FYI - my current best is 184whp (sae) with stock internals (cams, compression, etc.). Good luck.

 

How did you accomplish 184 whp with stock internals may I ask? What is your setup? I'm quite curious...

 

184 is very doable with stock stuff, the chipped ECU makes it that much easier..

 

I agree 100% with Stephen. Every car I have ever tested made more power with no exhaust (open header) usually around 5whp but sometimes 10 whp and sometimes as little as 2 whp. Have you dialed in the cam gears? Are you running a cat? Has all regular maintenance been done on the car? Cap, rotor, fuel filter, valve adjustment (remember use Toda specs). I think your cam gear settings can give you a few HP and set timing to 18 or 19 degrees.

 

wow...i agree with steve

its been track proven by me many many times..and on the dyno i've always made more power open header. every single time.

I also found some interesting things about my car and header combo at the track. really surprised me

 

...didn't realize he was running a chipped ECU

 

Wasn't there a thread a few weeks ago where it was pretty much determined that unless you raise compression Toda cams will cause a loss in power?

I'll bet most of the gains on that dyno were from having an open header.

 

very very untrue. So your saying using Spec A's as a drop in into an itr drivetrain will loose power?

the point i'm sure is...toda B's and especially C's love compression. add more see more gains.

 

Sorry Newt.......I have to disagree

 

Ok guys, just to clarify:

Jason: open header - I don't have an exhaust or cat connected. This is how I dyno'd. I wanted to take out the exhaust variable, but it doesn't seem to matter.

I'm leaning towards hytech's short setup right now, so I'll let you guys know on that.

Trey, I dyno'd on this same dyno several times in the past - once for the baseline, and then again when I switched to synthetic and installed the aem. My gains should be relative to my previous dyno plots... I posted those numbers in the original post.

As far as the maintenance on the car, I checked the valve clearances less than 1k miles ago and they are correct for spec b's.

Also, the car only has a little less than 8k miles on it, so there shouldn't be a whole lot I need to do... I changed the oil less than 2k miles ago, and the plugs looked fine when I pulled them less than 1k miles ago.

I'm just a little surprised at the output... I have gained roughly 15 whp over stock, and 10 tq with all the mods so far. It seems that sgT gained more with spec A's... I'll have to compare with my stock dyno's, but the gains aren't even that great at lower rpm's...

Steve, thanks for the advice this week. I'll definitely try the stuff you mentioned. I guess I really need an in-car a/f meter and volt meter to get my stuff dialed in good and road tuned.

Anyone else have some suggestions?


[Modified by Black R, 10:48 AM 8/16/2001]

 

Hi guys,

More proof that Todas Bs need some fine tuning

I have the compression, but I have a horrific header (Neuspeed 4-2-1), but I can share my results after Sat for baseline.

I made 173 HP and 124 TQ before bottom-end, headwork, and todas, and I'm fairly certain car feels a lot stronger now. I don't want to raise my expectations too high though. I'm also sure I can get more power from a real header, cat, exhaust, and cam gear settings...

Questions: Why is the curve so jagged, does that indicate timing issue, or is it just smoothing on the dyno software? Did you tune the cam gears?

I set my Skunk2s to +3 marks/+1 mark, which I thought was +3/+1, but is apparently +6+2 degrees on gear... I think advancing both is helpful if the head milled (mine is milled 20 thousandths). I guess you gotta actually test it out on dyno...

Oh well, keep working on it and the power will come

FB

 

Sorry, meant B's and C's.

The thread was on this board and I'm pretty sure you posted in it. Something about too much lift/duration/overlap causing a loss in compression.

Maybe I'm wrong, but most of the experts (vendors, whatever...) around here got into a pretty heated discussion about it. It was about three weeks ago, right before I left for vacation.

 

.....actually, if you want the details of my story, I lost 2whp peak when I dyno'd with stock header and the exact same other mods listed above. So basically, I gained 12whp from the toda header. But that isn't exactly true, since I lost ~2whp from the spec b's with stiffer springs, ti retainers, and cam gears.

Jason's plot is of particular interest to me because he has the same header, but not the stock cams... How much can he realistically hope to gain from them? I know he's looking at them now...

And that brings me to wonder how much can be gained from stock cams?

I'm definitely expecting 190's, simply because jack was able to do it with a similar setup and stock compression. Same ECU, jdm header, custom cai, 60mm exh, almost the same vafc settings...