I was having this debate with a friend.. and i have seen it in various places before.

My opinion.. and its that.. MINE... is that SE drivers are overly aggressive! Given I compare this to BMWCCA and PorscheCCA events and then to internationally comparable productions car racing. If a slight gap exists they will take the gap and its then a free-for -all to see who can stay with it longer or contact will result.. I will say that there are some good drivers who are very courteous and if something happens will come over and aplologise..

Whats yours? what region and anything specificly good or bad ?

 

Do a race in World Challenge and then every other event feels like BMW or PCA events.
From what I've raced and seen my order from sedate to war is...
1)BMW, PCA
2) SCCA regional
3)SCCA National
4)my regional series in Quebec
5)SVWC last couple of years...this is PRO racing war

Most other events can fall somewhere between 1 and 5

BBQman

 

This has been brought up before both here and in other places.

Generally, the consensus is that the stakes seem to be higher in SE division IT (which is what I assume you're talking about). There tends to be more cars with lots of money and development and some really, really fast drivers. There also appears to be more aggressiveness.

I don't know why and cant really comment on whether this is fact or fallacy because I've only driven in the SEDiv. I have however seen/heard this in several places including from some top SEDiv drivers that have been to other areas. I've even heard comments that things are different in South Florida (part of SEDiv) than the rest of the region. As in there may be some expansive rule book reading difficulty down there. I dunno, haven't been down there yet.

This of course isn't to say that running an IT race in the South is like a demo derby. It actually isn't much worse than a Honda Challenge race. But I do know of a few guys that hit people alot and not much has been done about them. Could be another case of a few bad apples ruining the whole bushel.
Once you get to know who these guys are, you simply stay away from them as best you can.

 

How many races have you done in SEDiv? I would hope its a very large number and this is a collection from many tracks where you see the same behavior. If this is all about one weekend at Road Atlanta five or so weeks ago, I think you very much need to reevaluate your opinion on what is rough driving and the role you play in it when traveling well off the pace.

To wit: the drivers in my region seem pretty damned good and seem to be on the same page for the most part.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Want2race &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was having this debate with a friend.. and i have seen it in various places before.

Whats yours? what region and anything specificly good or bad ?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

After reading the origins of this on IT.com, you should have no doubt your foot and mouth occupy the same space. "Beware the racers!" ???? Good Lord that's obnoxious and so incredibly backwards.

Adam Richman - CCR, SEDIV SCCA.
#42 ITA CRX Si white/red (undoubtedly one of those uncourteous, gap-shooting, finger flipping, terrible *******, free-for-all types)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phat-S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Adam Richman - CCR, SEDIV SCCA.
#42 ITA CRX Si white/red (undoubtedly one of those uncourteous, gap-shooting, finger flipping, terrible *******, free-for-all types)</TD></TR></TABLE>

Now now Adam. I've never seen you flip anyone the finger.

I didn't get to watch any of the S,A,7 races on account of being in post race impound each time. But looking at fast laps in the results I'm guessing there was plenty of high speed overtaking involved with this uncourteous gap shooting.

 

Well, from IT racing down here in in sunny Florida, I've had the best of time and no incidents. I have had a few close ones, but I've use my judgement to race another day and bring the car home safely. Well, except for my school at Roebling and having the car sideways on the first lap in turn 4 (or 5) with about 20 or more car behind me. I should have gone out with paddles and not tires. I bet you remember that one Adam

Now, my brother in SM is a different story. Those cars are equal (disclaimer: for the most part) that the only way they past each other is by out braking the guy into a corner. ...and do that every turn of every lap you end up with some rubbing at just about every race.

 

Of-course, that was the starting point of my career in uncourteous, gap-shooting, finger flipping, terrible *******, free-for-all type driving

 

Speaking for myself and Junkins, we can race together any day! I just don't leave FL much and you don't come down here. You still need to do Daytona if for no other reason than to tell those roundy round boys you got to race Daytona.

 

From the prospective of a driver who is relatively new to the sport, and after having had one season in both the SEDiv SCCA as well as NASA with the ECHC, I've gotta concur with Adam here. Before getting into w-t-w, I heard all of the horror stories about how IT in the SE was a crash-fest, guys would lean on others to make a pass all the time, yadda yadda yadda. I still hear that nonsense out of a few guys who "refuse" to run in SCCA because of the perceived level of bent sheetmetal, who think they're "safer" running elsewhere. I ran at Road Atlanta twice this past season, in the ProIT no less, and never got anything except clean driving out of each driver I had the privilege of sharing the track with. I had a multi-lap fight with an IT7 car and we were close and clean the whole time, and every car we overtook during the course of our fight gave us room. Likewise, as the ITS leaders overtook us, we gave room and resumed our battle as soon as they cleared us. There was one wreck that I remember during the course of my whole entire Road Atlanta experience, and that was the result of a blown engine and an oily track, not rough or overly aggressive driving.

My only bent sheetmetal last year came from Lowes during the ECHC HyperFest, and that was incidental as I got clipped by a spinning car. However, I saw just as much bent metal from overly aggressive drivers in that series last year as I saw in SCCA, maybe more. IMHO, the SEDiv, with the possible exception of SM, has gotten an undeserved bad rap for being a dangerous place to hang out. Sure, things happen, and I'm sure there have been a few guys who have used the "chrome horn" a few times. I do think it's the exception, not the rule. I've also found, and Catch22 aka Giles has screamed about it before on this board, the vast majority of the guys who whine and complain about how "rough" the SE SCCA IT crowd is are guys who don't even freakin' race in IT in the SE! They're just spreading second hand misconceptions around, just like they were told to them by someone else who may or may not have ever run in the SEDiv.

If you're concerned about whether or not you should race in any particular region or series, do a favor to yourself as well as others and talk to as many of the active drivers in that series about what it's like to race there, not guys on a message board, bench racers, or drivers from other series. I'll bet you'll find most, if not all, of the prejudices are unfounded.

 

Well, you gotta make sure that you're talking apples to apples.

There's a big difference between guys who hit alot of people and things (either on purpose or because they just cant drive) and someone who is being overtaken at high rates of speed and expects the overtakers to be courteous.

A fine gentleman named Mr. Eskine (heh, I just called Terry a gentleman) explained to both phatty and I early in our W2W adventures that there will be people who hit things and drive overly aggressively in ANY race series. As a driver YOU choose between staying away from those people or racing with them. And believe me, for the most part you KNOW who those people are pretty quickly.
I could sit here and rattle off the names of at least 5 people in both SEDIV IT and ECHC that I would not race with. If I couldn't get by them quickly I'd just back off and let 'em go.

Someone who is way off the pace and getting lapped multiple times in a 20 lap sprint race is a different situation. In my humble opinion HE, not the overtakers, is the one responsible for courtesy. If the overtakers are brushing him, bumping him, and giving him the finger... He's probably all sorts of in the way of their race and deserves what he's getting.
MY opinion.
Not an attack at Jon, who I think is a really nice guy. Just throwing out that if I'm understanding what he's saying I strongly disagree with him.

Floyd... you bringing your lazy *** to RA Labor Day Weekend?
All the cool people will be there.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">............ guys who hit alot of people and things (either on purpose or because they just cant drive) and .............. believe me, for the most part you KNOW who those people are pretty quickly. I could sit here and rattle off the names of at least 5 people in both SEDIV IT and ECHC that I would not race with. If I couldn't get by them quickly I'd just back off and let 'em go.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Bingo. My point was that the SEDiv is no more heavily populated with this type of "rough" or "overly aggressive" drivers than any other amateur series, IMO. And I agree 110% with the other point as well - the letter of the law states that the overtaking car has the responsibility to compete the pass cleanly, and the car being overtaken "owns" the line - but if you are seriously OFF the pace and cars are overtaking you at a high rate of speed, especially if it's more than one car overtaking you and they are battling amongst themselves for position and you (hypothetical you, mind you) are in their way, you owe them just as much courtesy and respect by watching your mirrors and being concious of your surroundings, and making every effort to not be a rolling chicane, as they owe you and should show you by not knocking you out of their way or telling you how much they think you're number one.

Just an opinion, mind you, from a guy who just yesterday watched for the umpteen-millionth time the in-car from my last trip of RA and remembers seeing how fast Robbie's ITS BMW came by on the inside of turn 1 - damn right I went wide to let him and the freight train behind him through!!

Sorry Giles, my car is still broke, and I have really no hope of any more racing this year with the exception of the reschedule for the last round of ECHC at CMP, and that is only if we car solve the mystery of exactly what the hell is wrong with my car. If not, I'm out for the year, and have driving school at Roebling to look foward to as I freakin' start over from scratch.

OBTW - I think you should paint your car to look like that poison dart frog - it's already blue, right? I'll bring my brushes and Krylon cans to RA just for that!

 

The new car is black and red. Similar to yours.

But SJR could paint black dots on the old car and be all over the frog thing. He's even french!!!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The new car is black and red. Similar to yours.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ahh, that's right. I remember the pics now, guess I was thinking of old Blue Meanie. Man, would that have been perfect or what?

SJR? You seein this? I have paint..... lots of paint......

 

and I will be the "Mad Frog Racing" team on top of that... how much more perfect can it be?
BTW, I landed a completely free, running, complete D16A6 drivetrain, delivered to the back of my truck last week. So I will be racing in H4 after all - sorry Richard. Of course, I will probably be slow enough that I will be racing against the H5 guys anyway
Anytime you wanna bring your paint to Haymarket, we can go to town on Kermit (temporary name for the car, I couldn't think of any other frog names... suggestions accepted)
I am also getting a Mad Frog Racing illustration drawn up by an HT member/artist - maybe that can be of some inspiration for the car's paint scheme.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SJR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
BTW, I landed a completely free, running, complete D16A6 drivetrain, delivered to the back of my truck last week. So I will be racing in H4 after all - sorry Richard.</TD></TR></TABLE>

congrats on your acquisition, but I still say " ". Wuz really looking foward to another H5 car in the mix. Maybe tha rat will come out to play with us......

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SJR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Of course, I will probably be slow enough that I will be racing against the H5 guys anyway </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'll drink to that!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SJR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am also getting a Mad Frog Racing illustration drawn up by an HT member/artist - maybe that can be of some inspiration for the car's paint scheme.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Catch's avatar wouldn't be too difficult, once a few were down, the creativity just flies....

Wish I could make it up to Va, that deal sounds like a lot of fun. My next car will have something funky instead of checkered flags.....

 

Holding your line. I have read this "overtaken drivers should hold their line" a lot and it is what we are taught at drivers school. It's entirely true, a driver should "hold their" line when being overtaken. They should NOT however "drive" their line when being overtaken. When being passed and especially lapped, the overtaken driver has an obligation to be predictable, this does not include cutting across the track amidst multiple cars fighting for position and I don't really give a hoot that its you line, its not predictable and its not akin to holding anything (unless you are talking about the overtaking driver's breath). Furthermore, a point by is merely an indication of where YOU are requesting they go. Often times, especially when being lapped, the speed you carry through the turn and the speed the overtaker carries through the turn are entirely different (thus the lapping) and that point by might not have any real practicality or safety in truth.

Whether its not taking your point by or taking a gap that you don't think is curteous, at the end of the day, when being overtaken by a group of cars fighting for position, you see them a good bit before they (all of them) see you and whether they are in your class or another, you should accomodate that they are limited by their speed as to what they can do when you are in the mix.

 

well.......seeing as i run Midwestern Council and not SCCA, i probably have a bit of a different perspective on things. MC i think is generally seen as the "nice guys with less money than the SCCA crowd and can't drive quite as fast." i won't go into why i think this assumption is wrong (if it even is one). we have certain groups that are well known for their excessive metal to metal contact, and it's not even the IT guys. the Spec Miata crowd is known for being a bit of an unruly bunch, and there have been so many problems this season that about a month ago a handful of people were handed 13month suspesions. the last race lots of these guys didn't show up (for better or worse), and it was a relatively clean race compared to the 7-car-red-flag-first-lap incident of the month before.

travis
-who will experience this for the first time in less than 1 month