hi all i have a 96 gsr and am contemplating weather or not to go turbo or all motor and i just have a couple of questions that hopefully you can answer for me. how reliable are built all motor hondas. the eventual set up i would likt to do is bore my motor to 2.0l give it a port polish a port matched intake manifold, multi angle valve job, sleeve it,put in the toda high compression piston kit 12:3:1 i think,crank, complete toda valve train with spec b cams new clutch type r tranny with jdm final drive. my question is ive heard of high compression engines idling like crap and not being too reliable. somebody give me a little insight to the all motor world. thank you

 

Someone has some money

The idle is dependent upon cams used and the tuning. There are numerous people on this board running TODA B's, I'm sure they can tell you how the idle is.

And I'd think an NA engine built correctly would be more reliable, simply because you are not boosting (obviously). You're not looking at 100,000 mile OEM reliability with any more-than-I/H/E-modded engine though.

 

alot of people go all motor because they think of boost as unreliable.

The truth of the matter is both have their limits, both depend on how much power/to what you've done to re-enforce/to how you drive/ to how well the install and break in goes. If you have the money, than I wouldnt consider either one of a reliability problem, its how well you build the motor, and how much power, and what kind of power you want

*All motor wear:

- TI retainers. It is much stronger than OE retainer, but it is also much softer. Nitride coatings can physically bond to the metal making it much stronger than oem (ie, my rockwell 85 goodness) but noone that I know of has long term testing.
- Rocker Arms. Depending on how much you drive, and how you drive, Toda spec B's could eat your rocker arms for breakfast
-Valves. As explained in various other threads, all sorts of problems with aftermarket valves, so, stay stock
-Timing Belts - Toda reccomends their belt which is the same as the PE & Greddy belts, but after talking to a few engine builders/tuners alot of people, myself included are having problems with these. My belt has 1,500 miles on it and is wearing away.........

 

compression...and tuning, both are your friends.

 

when i built my motor i put it in a weekend car only. i had previously had my JUN cams in my motor as a daily driver. i had them in for almost 9 months of daily drivin and hard use at the track. they are still in my motor which has been running for the second full season since rebuild without a hitch. the motor is still puttin out damn good ETs and still untuned to date. i change the oil once a yr and havent ever changed the plugs, wires, cap or rotor. im extremely happy with it.

on the other hand i know a guy that has about 20K wrapped up into his NA motor alone and its made a whoppin 3 appearances this yr and on the third it fried cylinder #4 do to a misfiring injector.

 

well i definitley plan on tuning the car right i will be doing every and anything necessary including ecu prob go w hondata, fuel delivery prob 300cc injectors. i wouldnt say i drive my car hard i have the basic bolt ons i/e/h and rarely take it above like 5 grand with the po po and rising gas prices i dont take the chance.

 

When I first dropped my motor (refer to signature) in...I ran into some problems with idling & bogging. 1 month later...my car runs very smoothly even without tuning. I am planning a dyno day sometime this coming week. As for reliablity, I think all motor is the most reliable but keep the compression under 12:1 for daily driving.

 

you can have as much compression as you want on any type of fuel. timing IS the key to all motor performance.if im not mistaken erick aguilar is running around 16:1 compression on pump gas and STILL was able to run a 9.9@131mph.so.......
i would suggest talking to him about the set up but i personally wouldnt go higher than 12:1 due to not being able to to tune the car properlly.

 

I find it kind of hard to believe that Erick Aguilar runs pump gas in the race car
All motor is generally more reliable than FI for the simple reason that it makes less power. The more power you make, the more stress on all of the engine internals, not to mention the drivetrain.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b19coupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I find it kind of hard to believe that Erick Aguilar runs pump gas in the race car
All motor is generally more reliable than FI for the simple reason that it makes less power. The more power you make, the more stress on all of the engine internals, not to mention the drivetrain.</TD></TR></TABLE>
hey that is what i was told by an assload of people. truthfully i kinda doubt it but ill call erick my self sometime today and find out if its true cuz i dont know if its a rumor or a lie. but i do know a guy out of austin who is runnin 93 octane on an ls/vtec that has 13.5:1 compression and i have seen him run like 12.5's all motor on street tireson a shitty track so i dont know.

 

boosting is safe and reliable when tunned right and minmal boost.

If people say that boost is unreliable and unsafe.... they don't know what their talking about. IMHO i'd personally have a B18c with forged pistons (11.1cr), common turbo kit, hondata tunning with very street friendly/conservative timing boosting at 7psi daily 10psi and make 250+whp then a fully built 85mm 2.0 B18c1, with jun3, fully done head, built bottom end, 12.5cr, hondata tunning and only making 220-235whp. But thats just me and base on my own personal preferrance and how often i drive me car.

HTH

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b19coupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I find it kind of hard to believe that Erick Aguilar runs pump gas in the race car
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I pumped some 110 octane the day. Although I bet erick is running more like 116

No way Erick is running 9.9's on anything you get at 7-11

On the topic, all motor typically gives a broader lesser powerband while FI gives more of a narrow peakier power band. The lesser broad powerband IMO is not as rough on components.

 

Jon, You must lower your car before building a motor.

 

lol

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MADEinJAPAN &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Jon, You must lower your car before building a motor. </TD></TR></TABLE>

uh-oh....got caught slippin'!!! hahahaha

 

lower.....NEVER ground clearance rules. screw lowering my car id rather put my money into my motor (hint hint get ur freaking motor already eric) instead of damn lowering it i can still go fast on stock ride height then MAYBE ill lower it but probably not lowering is at the bottom of my to do list

 

I will have something for ya buddy...when are you coming back from school next?

 

As far as I'm concerned, any time you add an aftermarket part into the engine, you sacrifice reliability/ durability for power or ultimate strength. For NA, if you use aftermarket cams, Ti retainers, valves, springs, raise the redline or whatnot, you sacrifice durability. That's why I think if you stay low boost, like 7psi, and with proper tuning, you would actually have a longer-lasting setup than most NA setups.

If I recall correctly from Maximum Boost (Corky Bell), he showed a graph of the way a turbo engine makes power....it was not so much more pressure in the combustion chambers, as the fact that the pressure acted on the pistons longer. Therefore, a turbo engine that makes twice as much power as an NA engine isn't necessarily stressed even close to twice as much. That and the fact that most of the stresses in engines are inertial loads from rpms (a b16 pulls around 3500g's at redline if I recall correctly) and not from the actual combustion pressures means, to me at least, that a proper turbo engine will last longer than an NA engine.

Still, I'm a big fan of NA.

 

I used to run a poorman ITR setup that put down about 30,000-40,000 miles. My compresson was around 11.5-11.8:1. OEM cams, of course, but I put down roughly 80 miles a day plus weekend cruises at Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville and once in awhile West Palm beach (um.......no, not street racing,,,,,me no way ).

I used to go to the track 3-4 times out of the month. This included AC (hey, I'm in Floirda) and all. Another words, a daily driver.

On the other hand, I"ve seen guy do the same with Force induction, such as turbo and supercharger kits. Same amount of mileage and no problems. It all boils down to how often you take care of it and up to date with maintances. Keep in mind how it was built, if it was built half-***, you get a half-*** reliablity engine......PERIOD.

Also, heat, heat........have a the right amount of coolant, bigger dual core radiator, cap, and if your are turbo, upgrade with one of those FAL fans, those kits blow real good.

lol.........Why Toda?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lsos &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As far as I'm concerned, any time you add an aftermarket part into the engine, you sacrifice reliability/ durability for power or ultimate strength. For NA, if you use aftermarket cams, Ti retainers, valves, springs, raise the redline or whatnot, you sacrifice durability. That's why I think if you stay low boost, like 7psi, and with proper tuning, you would actually have a longer-lasting setup than most NA setups.

If I recall correctly from Maximum Boost (Corky Bell), he showed a graph of the way a turbo engine makes power....it was not so much more pressure in the combustion chambers, as the fact that the pressure acted on the pistons longer. Therefore, a turbo engine that makes twice as much power as an NA engine isn't necessarily stressed even close to twice as much. That and the fact that most of the stresses in engines are inertial loads from rpms (a b16 pulls around 3500g's at redline if I recall correctly) and not from the actual combustion pressures means, to me at least, that a proper turbo engine will last longer than an NA engine.

Still, I'm a big fan of NA. </TD></TR></TABLE>


damn it thats exactly what I was trying to say! Well put

 

all this safe boost talk. if i was gonna go turbo im doing all or nothing im not going to be running no 7 psi i want 10 or more if i turboed the bitch everything would b upgraded internals,sleeved that would cost me about 10grnd to turbo it rather go all motor for about half the money or less and have a 200whp honda plus i like high redling sounds nice id rather start with a car that is already turboed so i got more strength.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MADEinJAPAN &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I will have something for ya buddy...when are you coming back from school next? </TD></TR></TABLE>

.......SURE...i told ya if i c a motor in ur car that actually works and drives ill personally take u with me to go buy some obx coilovers and have em raise the car an inch or more. dont know prob come home late sept.

 

Ok...get ready to go to Trenz...by the way, I will be waiting outside...I don't go in that place.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gsr-2nr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">all this safe boost talk. if i was gonna go turbo im doing all or nothing im not going to be running no 7 psi i want 10 or more if i turboed the bitch everything would b upgraded internals,sleeved that would cost me about 10grnd to turbo it rather go all motor for about half the money or less and have a 200whp honda plus i like high redling sounds nice id rather start with a car that is already turboed so i got more strength.</TD></TR></TABLE>

10 Grand!!!! Wow...How are you going to spend that much????
Cars that come equipped with a turbo from the factory are by no means stronger that a B-series motor that is sleeved, Rods, pistons,..etc. A sleeved B Series is almost bullet-proof.

You can spend just as much on All-Motor as you can on Turbo...it just depends on what you are going for. Since we live in colorado..turbo would be the way to go if you want lots of power. Honestly, for your purposes I would leave your motor alone.

 

cars that come turbo often come with an iron block they r stronger than a b series and add a sleeve to that its 2x stronger than a b series. 10 grand will be easily achieved turboing my car all the internals,transmission, fuel, wasegate,blowoff valve,intercooler not to mention a turbo id buy a hks gt 3730 which is not cheap add all the labor it will be 10k if not that much pretty damn close to it. my purposes wtf is that. when i have more money i will go into greater depths of tuning my motor