I guess I want to reopen a topic that was encased in one of those recent Spec Miata threads.

What is it exactly that so many of you people have against Spec Miata, or Miata's in general?

I'll tell you: You're fucked up!

The Miata is damn near dynamically perfect. And it's fast enough to do the job. What job? Propelling the car around the race track in the hands of anyone who loves driving and racing.

So what do these people say who look down their noses at the Miata? "It's a Girls car", "It's Sports Car Jr.", and I love this one "I'm against Spec Classes".

First things first. Is an MGB a "Girls car"? Is an Alfa Duetto? Is a Bathtub Porsche?

That's right - they're not. Neither is the Miata. It is the worthy progeny of such great cars.

So it's context then that incubates this prejudice. Sounds like somebody just thinks they should should be driving a "bigger unit" to me.

"Well, you can say that, but I don't like Spec cars". Ah, and what's not to like? Racing is all about Rules in most classes, and I've noticed alot of people are fond of participation in the discussion of rules. Does Spec Miata just not have enough rules? It certainly couldn't be because the rules are too restrictive.

Certainly a 20+ field of closely matched cars provides an opportunity for close racing thats hard to match. And when, oh when, would the ability to carry momentum count for more? Watching Spec Miata makes people who don't race SM think about racing SM - and many of them go on to actually do it. That's got to tell you something.

We all talk about the cost of racing from time to time. Spec Racer Ford guys promote their brand of racing along this line pretty heavily. But they ARE kinda dumb cars, and they fight, Fight, understeer all the time. The Miata is cheap to build, cheap to race, cheap to fix - yes, I know you have to fix body damage on Spec Racers more often than on other cars, but that's a pattern in Highly Competitive Racing in deep and dense fields. What are you gonna do? Object that cheap race cars promote crashing? I thought cheap was good?

Look at it really rationally - how can you NOT think SM is a no-brainer?

So, when will I be buying a Miata to run SM in? I don't know, there's just something about those cars that just bugs me.

Scott, who is just describing a rational analysis of Spec Miata, not actually giving one...

 

I would love to but...
-6'-4" 240
-bank account is not deep enough to toss stupid ca$h at a 'built' motor for 3 extra hp that may or may not last.

Me otter =

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So, when will I be buying a Miata to run SM in? I don't know, there's just something about those cars that just bugs me.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah... it's a chick car.

Warren

 

Uh, Warren, haven't you heard? So is the Integra.

Scott, who tries not to let it bother him too much...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Willard &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...stupid ca$h... </TD></TR></TABLE>

Will, are you sure there is any other kind?

Scott, who avoids "stupid cash" by minimizing contact with Cash period...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Willard &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would love to but...
-6'-4" 240
-bank account is not deep enough to toss stupid ca$h at a 'built' motor for 3 extra hp that may or may not last.

Me otter = </TD></TR></TABLE>
that pretty much sums it up for me.

Evan- who may or may not build a SM

 

You don't need the Sunbelt motor to compete, do you?

I've driven a few Miatas, and my first thought has always been "What a sweet track car this would make." Me: 5'7", 145.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ross &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You don't need the Sunbelt motor to compete, do you?</TD></TR></TABLE>nope... but to win you have to pay.

P1 has a Mazda crate motor sitting in the shop right now.
A blown motor Miata with some body wrinkles = cheap fun on track that you have to 'drive' to be fast.

 

i'm all about putting any car on track as long as it is safe.....nothing about the miata has shown me differently....would i race one.....yeah but i wouldn't go out and buy one to race!!!

jmho.....

late
chad
14

 

I think that 3hp would be useful at the very front in a fight within a tenth, but elsewise, yeah, Driving would dwarf it.

Scott, who, as so many times in life, see's the smarter path, and, yet, cannot take it...

 

Miata's are OK, but just too big. Try an MG Midget some time. I'd have been racing my wife's '74 a few years ago, but she wouldn't let me take it off the street.

 

Midgets and Sprites will fit amazingly large occupants though.

I think that people racing Lotus-7's in places like E Production are taking inordinate risks.

Scott, who likes driving a modern car designed to save his life in a crash to start with with a good cage to boot...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What is it exactly that so many of you people have against Spec Miata, or Miata's in general?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
nothing except I'm too tall to race one, and somehow for the last several races they've been the ECHC roving chicane... I think that might be where some of the frustration comes from.. poor planning on SOMEBODY'S part. Nothing personal miata peeps.

 

We have a guy here in Des Moines - 6'4", probably 240-ish. Not overly fat, but a BIG guy. He has a Kirkey aluminum seat, bolted to the floor. PLENTY of room.

Like Scott said, that 3hp is EASILY lost in the noise of the driver. My crate motor cost me $1600. That's oilpan to valve cover, minus the alternator and fuel injection system that were transferred from the old motor. It runs down the straight with (or faster than) every other car in our division, and faster than one particular car with one of those "high-po" motors....

Next excuse.

Jarrod

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It certainly couldn't be because the rules are too restrictive.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The rules are too restrictive in that they only allow you to complain about one thing.

This might not come out as cohesively as I'd like but here it goes.

People love to blame their equipment. "My car is poorly classed." "My shocks/springs just aren't up to the job." Or in my case, "My lens just isn't getting me the coverage I want." Choice can be the death of some people.

In a spec class, especially Spec Miata where fields of forty plus cars have been known to daintily pound around the track, it's safe to say the cars are fairly identical. So what is there to blame if you finish 35th in 40 car field? You. Sure, you might not have the extra 3hp the guy on top of the podium has, but I can't help but think you have to start drawing the line somewhere (somewhere around 3hp) and begin looking at your own ability.

No one really wants to pull into the paddock after a long, grueling race, sigh and say "Yep. I don't drive very well." In Spec Miata, that is a distinct possibility, and one I think many people don't want to face.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Vantage &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
In a spec class, especially Spec Miata where fields of forty plus cars have been known to daintily pound around the track, it's safe to say the cars are fairly identical. So what is there to blame if you finish 35th in 40 car field? You. Sure, you might not have the extra 3hp the guy on top of the podium has, but I can't help but think you have to start drawing the line somewhere (somewhere around 3hp) and begin looking at your own ability.

No one really wants to pull into the paddock after a long, grueling race, sigh and say "Yep. I don't drive very well." In Spec Miata, that is a distinct possibility, and one I think many people don't want to face.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is the reason I find spec classes so interesting and exciting - it is 99.9% about driver skill, mindset, attitude.... mostly skill and execution.

Bad example, but still shows a point: In autocross, there are certain cars you buy if you want to be competitive nationally; either in stock classes or SP's. There are others that are such a long shot in their classifications that it isn't even worth trying if all you care about is winning/being competitive.

IMO, with racing, one of your top two/three goals had better to be 'be competitve' or 'win'... along with 'have fun' and something else, I'm not sure right now what my third goal was.

So... in a spec class, there is no worrying about what car to have and the build up for said car. The rules dictate what you do, and the only real variable is how much you spend (to decide if 3whp is important) and most importantly.... how you drive.

For as long as I have followed motorsports and read about it, I have always thought that driver skill was the most important thing. Obviously in the big-money race series, that is not the case.

But in these grassroots-type race series we are discussing, the difference between 1st and last is your skill.

 

For all the folks that lament that it costs 6k for a Sunbelt motor, have you thought about the gains of 2500 dollar cage vs. a 600 dollar bolt in? I may be wrong but where suspension is so limited and where there should be parity on this aspect of the car, the quality of the platform you bolt it all to should be very significant. If I were going this route, I would make the cage my priority and probably run a few races on the stock motor and when it came time to put in the race motor, I find it hard to believe that you cannot source a legal, top notch built motor for what you'd pay for its ITA equivalent (which I'd put dollars to doughnuts is a far cry south of $6,000.00). And if its not and the best you can muster is 2 to 3 whp off of what a 6k motor puts out, deal with it or start saving up your pennies. Anyone that believes that they cannot play in a spec race with a 2 whp difference IMO is looking for excuses not solutions, winning isn't always the answer. SM is a great series, a great idea and great competition. Whereas I do see more contact on track, IMO its the parity of the field that creates that situation - no real way around it and I do not think its quantifiably larger these days than other classes. The only thing I'd change is the silly public notion that you can be competetive in SM with building a 7k car - you cannot and you will not irrespective of 6/7ths of that is the motor. And likewise, you can't win in ITS, ITA, ITB or ITC building a 7k car either. I'd bet good money that the top 3 cars per class in the SouthEast have that much money in the cage, shell, suspension, safety equipment, tires and wheels before they even purchase a junkyard motor and tranny. For the money, you could probably have a top notch SM built for 12-16k without motor and never have more fun on 4 wheels. JMO and for what its worth, I have never heard a SM driver who finished 15th hop out and say "if I only had 3whp I could have won that race!" Maybe they are saying it, I just haven't heard it.

 

It is a great idea and something I was considering before deciding on HC. I still think it would be nice to have a Honda version of SM.

 

I can easily fit in a Miata, and would love to try to compete in SM.

The problem is location. Canada has a very weak motorsports program compared to the USA. There are little places to get into, although we have some great tracks.....

 

My biggest "problems" with Spec Miata:

I already own a truly great car that I love and won't part with.

Multiple race cars are more than I care to manage right now, if ever. Thank goodness I can't afford to try it - Ha, there's a Silver Lining.

Spec Miata is about driving. It offers nothing to Dr. Frankenstein Race Car Engineer.

Scott, who is astounded by how cheap Yamaha R1 motors for DSR are...I really didn't know in the beginning that I was getting involved in a nearly Porsche Expensive game...

 

I'm against spec classes in general.
Why? Because in almost all cases the "spec" classed cars are already classed in IT with a very similar rule set.
Spec Miata is the best example of this. The top SMs in my division typically have around $20Kish invested. Don't even try to convince me that you couldn't build a fast, competitive, ITA Miata for $20K. You absolutely positively could. You just couldn't be guaranteed that it'd be "the car" to have because its the only damned car in the class.

So, you can put me in the category of people who don't think we NEED more classes. I feel that by creating SM all you are doing is robbing from other classes. I know the IT participation levels have dropped around here since SM was created. Why? Whats the point? Its a friggin ITA car!!!

Sure, I know its massively popular. But so is "Who Wants to Marry a &lt;fill in the blank&gt;" and I refuse to accept that popularity = a good thing.

 

I'm supremely confident that I can, without fear of contradicting myself, agree with much of what you say Scott.

I am against Spec Classes too (just not Spec Miata I guess).

So much of organized motorsports is about "bringing in new people". And what do you need to bring them in with? Something New! A New Class! Repeat indefinitely. Make every race weekend a 3-Day event. Don't you just love spending 3 days to drive for about an hour total?

I think the worst thing you can say about that next new class - spec or otherwise - is that it probably does more canibalization than anything else.

Scott, who would really like a Race (Practice, Qualifying, Race) to be a 1-Day event...and a Double would be two of those one after another...

 

coming from a family that has owned Miata's...there's two big things in my eyes that they need.

Brakes and Tires

Both of which are allowed by most sanctioning bodies.

 

I am not sure I buy this on a lot of levels. At Road Atlanta last month there must have been at least 4 ITA Miatas in the SARRC and during the Pro IT, at least 3 more covered up their SM badging and ran in ITA as well. I have seen several Miata in ITA trim this year, more than I saw last year and I don't believe ITA participation levels have dropped off (there were 14 ITA cars in Saturday's SARRC). And I don't buy they stretch out the weekend either, in relative terms, only more total cars would do that (think of how many undersubscribed race groups run in a single run group - that would happen regardless of SM or SRF).

And yes, you probably could build a ITA Miata for a comparable price but you don't have Pro ITA Miata nor do you have support from MazdaSpeed I presume nor do you have a limited selection of spec tire (which however much I dislike for a series w/ different cars, I think its spot-on for a spec series). Hell, for all we know, the new ITA Miata that are showing up in ITA are a direct result of seeing how fast SM can be. I have heard more than once we have Spec Miata to thank for Hankook's inclusion of a DOT R-compound and Hoosier's new R3S04.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Willard &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would love to but...
-6'-4" 240
-bank account is not deep enough to toss stupid ca$h at a 'built' motor for 3 extra hp that may or may not last.

Me otter = </TD></TR></TABLE>

In what other racing class would you not need the best engine money could buy? A class in which there is no real competition? A class in which everyone has agreed not to buy/build better engines than one another?

The reason pro-built motors came to exist for SM is because the competition is so great. Competition is also the appeal to many/most of us that have jumped on board.

In a class like IT or HC, wouldn't one have to test for days and days to find the right spring rate and length, shock brand and valving, sway bar type and thickness, etc. (in addition to the best engine) to win in a competitive field? All of those parts cost lots of money to buy and discard.

I paid well under $20K for my car, and I've led two of the Pro races this year. With more experience and attention to a few more details, I should be even more competitive next year. I can't wait...

------------------------

And for the "Miata is a girls car" crowd, I agree with Scott - Since when were Integras, Preludes, CRXs and Civics not girls cars?