I'm assuming the running costs & initial investment are quite similar for cars such as an H1 Civic and an H3 GSR, please correct me if I'm wrong?

Just trying to figure out what I wanna do. Already have the Civic, just want to be sure I'm not making a mistake by moving forward in it's preparedness towards race car and away from street/stock car.

 

Initial cost for the H1 car is going to be higher, unless you have major shop connections.

Warren

 

H1 is far more expensive. You have to do a LOT of work to be competitive.


Matt

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Warren &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Initial cost for the H1 car is going to be higher, unless you have major shop connections.</TD></TR></TABLE>

How?

B16's are cheap. The shells are cheap. You dont need $2500 suspension setups.

 

Just using this as my example:

Yack sold his car for... 18-20 I believe, a built H3 GSR probably costs around the same, correct?

I'm sure my logic may be flawed somewhere, I'm just not seeing where.

 

I built mine close to 7k. H1
In three years it will be cheaper to run H1 than H3 or H2 due to the high demand for GSR or Type R engines with a limited supply of parts. I'm speaking of this in relation to HC. We're not allowed to resleeve blocks so obtaining new ones with be more costly down the road. my 2 cents

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by speedracer33 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">H1 is far more expensive. You have to do a LOT of work to be competitive.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think your viewpoint is flawed - you bought a car with *alot* of issues.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Littleton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I built mine close to 7k. H1</TD></TR></TABLE>

And so the plot thickens. Granted the Vertex hatch isn't a front-runner at the moment but I find it hard to believe it's very far from it.

 

You also have to think down the road. An H1 car for X dollars might run up front this year, but how much will you need to invest to stay competitive next year?

At least in H2-H5 the modification ceiling is much lower. The initial cost to build might be similar, but a fully prepped H3 car will cost you much less then a fully prepped H1 car. There are some cars very close to full prep in H3 right now -- Brinson, Ratcliffe, and Phillips. The door is still wide open in H1.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JMU1337 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Granted the Vertex hatch isn't a front-runner at the moment but I find it hard to believe it's very far from it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I guess 4th in class/6th overall (if the R&D car had still been running) before it broke at hyper-fest was a fluke?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think your viewpoint is flawed - you bought a car with *alot* of issues.</TD></TR></TABLE>

big brakes vs stock brakes
bigger wheels to accomodate the big brakes
faster tire wear
MAJOR engine work - pistons, cams, etc.

Building a front running H1 car costs more. I stand by my original statement.


Matt

 

Well, the Vertex's car main focus for next year is to win the 12 hours at the point. The engine is actually going to be prepped this year with a 6k investment with another 2k going towards suspension. I was happy to have a driver turn 1:27's at SP with 2 degrees of positive camber on the front and rear wheels.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I guess 4th in class/6th overall (if the R&D car had still been running) before it broke at hyper-fest was a fluke? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Not a fluke, it's a quick car/driver, but not a front runner IMO. I cant wait to see the lambo doors on it next year

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by speedracer33 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">big brakes vs stock brakes</TD></TR></TABLE>

$$$ down the drain

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">bigger wheels to accomodate the big brakes</TD></TR></TABLE>

Even more $$$ down the drain

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">faster tire wear</TD></TR></TABLE>

With a lighter car than all of the h2/h3/h4 guys?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">MAJOR engine work - pistons, cams, etc.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Its really not neccessary.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Building a front running H1 car costs more</TD></TR></TABLE>

A better statement would be "you can spend more running a H1 car if you want, but its not neccessary to be competitive"

 

I don't think the car is a front runner and being a front runner depends more on the driver than the car. I don't think anyone can handle Evans Wieght-to-Power and braking HP this year.

Comment on RJ's response: Chamber the head, put Chevy IRL spec Valve springs, RTR cams and P&P the head would cost 8k. My questions is when is it going to get to that point?

 

Big brakes are money down the drain? I can't wait to hear this one...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A better statement would be "you can spend more running a H1 car if you want, but its not neccessary to be competitive"</TD></TR></TABLE>

If that is what I meant, I would have said it. I don't agree with that statement...


Matt

 

A front running car, still needs a front running driver.

H3 GSR's "race ready" seem to sell for $16-18K, or at least thats what I see kingrat sells his many for.

If you have the civic and the resources (i.e. engine and suspension/brake parts) than why not give it a shot. Worst comes to worse, you try, you fail, you pull the engine and sell a rolling chassis (EG?) with a pimp new cage in it.

I can't see you loosing too much money, but as we all know racing is a disposal of money

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by speedracer33 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Big brakes are money down the drain? I can't wait to hear this one...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

How are they not?

If your H1 car didnt come with them, would you have bought that setup and 16" volk wheels?

If you bought a fastbrakes kit, then yes i can see how you will save some $$$ due to the cost of pads. But you can still use 15" wheels then.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

$$$ down the drain

Even more $$$ down the drain

With a lighter car than all of the h2/h3/h4 guys?

Its really not neccessary.

A better statement would be "you can spend more running a H1 car if you want, but its not neccessary to be competitive"</TD></TR></TABLE>


RJ.....not to be a dick or anything but your view on cost of racing is far from truth....


YOU WILL NOT WIN H1 with a B16a swap...period...as long as there is a car with an ITR or GSR is out there with equal drivers the the gsr or itr will win....
yes the b16 is a great engine but not a front runner in H1....

you can build a GSR block with b16 head for:
ctr pistons 200
b16 head 600
cams and valve train 1800
gsr block 800
itr intake manifold with itr tbody 450
gaskets/bearings 400
new oil pump 150

that is 4400 bucks....then you need a tranny with lsd cause you are losing 1-2 seconds a lap without lsd....add other 1250 for itr lsd tranny

swap for 5650 and it should be a front runner
as long as you have a good driver with suspension set up

and MATT's car is very well set up!! he has the brakes to out brake all as soon as he learns how to use the brakes (new to the setup that is why) 15 inch vs 16 inch....not a big deal.....matt has a front runner car as soon as he gets use to it....
h1 is turning out to be very competitive

our car has the above engine work and 2000 for chasis 1500 for suspension 500 for brakes 2000 safety equip 1000 for rims 600 for tires 1000 misc. that is under 15000 if you can do the work yourself (which i would rather do myself personally)

if i were just starting out i would go h4 or h5.....learn to carry your speed....i drove this weekend with 135hp to the wheels....man it sucked....learned alot driving with 70 less hps!!!!

 

deleted, cuz I don't know chit.


Modified by 91-Si-Ken at 6:33 PM 8/12/2003

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I guess 4th in class/6th overall (if the R&D car had still been running) before it broke at hyper-fest was a fluke? </TD></TR></TABLE>

what was your car's best laptime? i think Evans turned a 1:25.03 in qualifying or practice at Hyperfest....

your car was being driven by one of the best drivers out there. way way way better than i drive; Peyton is awesome. your car is weak compared to the front runners; i should know, cause powerwise it was about the same as my LS powered car going down the front straight... we (your B16 and my LS) have to be down 30+ whp on the R&D car/Evans car; not sure about Whittackers car and Magic Dude's.

to fix that kind of power deficit requires some major $$$. then, after you have the power, you can start running into the kind of problems Chad is having; major breakage. I'd hate to tally up his teams bill so far for this year... yikes....

Honda makes an awesome powertrain. stock it is very powerful and very durable. just ask Karl and his ubermoteur about it sometime... once you start pushing the output of the motor up 50% over stock, don't expect it to remain as trouble free. you need a well developed engine program plus extensive tuning to get the most out of your motor, both durability and power. that costs $$$, unless you have a shop with a dyno in it...

by next year, you will see more H1 cars motoring around the track with 230 whp in them, i think. that will cost alot more than your H3 car; probably in motors alone...

I won't be one of them. I will continue to do my best with limited equipment.

why, you ask, did i choose H1? well, 'cause I had a track car for the previous 3 years already running a stock LS motor, bigger brakes, etc. at the time, it seemed easier to finish prepping it for H1 than to yank the parts out and return to stock (D15B7 powa!). if i had done the stock routine, I would have alot alot alot more $$$ in my pocket right now, and a much better chance that i would be leading the points race (in H5) than i am doing in H1.

but, would it be as much fun? that, i don't know. i really LOVE the speeds/excitement levels that a higher hp/lower weight car provides. even if i'm not winning any H1 events, i am still having a ball. and that is what it is all about.

whew! long winded mode off

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd Reid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

what was your car's best laptime? i think Evans turned a 1:25.03 in qualifying or practice at Hyperfest....


</TD></TR></TABLE>

we ran a 1.26.xxx in practice down 30 hp from beaver run....then engine went boom....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">RJ.....not to be a dick or anything but your view on cost of racing is far from truth....</TD></TR></TABLE>

I never said that this is the hot, class destroying setup.

I was just pointing out that it is possible to be competitive, up near the front, for alot less $$$. I dont care who gets in that car, i dont think it will win races. But its up there. I want to put a Video Camera in there to try to learn something, because when i drove the car i was thinking "the suspension could really use some work... ", although I know that I need alot more work than the suspension does.

RJ

 

Engine builders charge the same amount whether it's going in an H1 or an H3 car.

The added cost of H1:
- cams
- springs
- retainers
- valves
- brakes
The added cost of H3:
- the shell

This year, engine management costs more for H1, but that is likely to change next year. Oh yea... the head work may cost a little more for an H1 engine - maybe.

As I see it, well prepared H1 & H3 cars come out fairly even.


BTW, in an attempt to break the crack addiction cold-turkey I may be selling (or parting out) a very well prepared H1 car in the not too distant future.

 

IMO, a very well prepped H1 car will cost more than a very well prepped H3 car.