When is it appropriate to push a student to go faster? To push them outside their comfort zone? How hard do you push them and how fast do you really want them to go? I mean this is what HPDE's are about - going fast and stuff on a track in a controlled, safe environment.

If you say something like "flat foot from T4 to the brake zone for southbend" will they really believe it? Or will they try to do it just because you said they can... and get scared and lift at the top of the esses? If they are not confident in what they are about to do, you both are in a world of ****.

Do you ease them into going faster without actually saying "go faster"? Such as... brake later... or turn in a bit earlier, or get on the throttle sooner or.. dont lift there?

I've focused mainly on getting the student smooth and consistent and then having them make small adjustments to their line after that. The speed usually comes in around that time as they begin to get comfortable with their skills and the track. But i'm fairly certain they're not pushing their performance envelope much. Its like any other new skillset you learn - its mostly mental - but however the stakes at speed on a track are much higher if you either run out of traction or run out of skill. I'd feel responsibble if i was pushing a student to go faster and then they had an incident, since the students really do put alot of trust in their instructors.

Thoughts?

RJ

 

I yell so loud they push the gas pedal harder to try to get away from me, works great!

 

Good topic.

I have been blessed with a LOT of great students. With many I have made the decision to "push" them. Now that you asked the question, I think that I have 3 basic criteria:

(1) I do the "I'm going to shut up for a few laps and let you have fun" thing. Student mustr drive the same as when I was "instructing"

(2) Shown an ability to "handle" the unexpected (traffic, oversteer/understeer, reduced grip, etc)

(3) Student doesn't get stupid when chasing traffic

(4) Student shows some natural skill (doesn't need to be reminded to brake straight, enter the turn under throttle, etc).

Those are the biggest things that I need to see to push someone. But I never formally check things off on a list. If I feel comfortable, I do it. I had one student (a woman in a ZO6) who "got it" and I wanted to see her build some speed at Roebling. I started by saying "I bet you can do 115 MPH on the straight this lap". Then 120, then 125 We had the A/C on, rollbar in the car, and 5-point harnesses. Why not?

 

Regardless of what an instructor is trying to get a student to do, it is important to tell them what to do with their body, rather than what to do with the car. "Turn the wheel (sooner, later, slower, faster, smoother, quicker)." "Get on the throttle (sooner, later, part-way, quicker)." The car's action and position on the track are determined by driver inputs and I see way to many drivers trying to make the car do something without understanding (or changing) what they do with their feet, hands, or eyes.

That said, I believe that an instructor should "let" a student go faster rather than "make" a student go faster. I spent a lot of years coaching gymnastics - another game that hurts if you get it wrong - and have come to the conclusion that it is almost never an effective approach to "push" an athlete in a sport that is fear-limited. This assumes that the desired outcome is for the athlete (student driver) to be able to go fast on his/her own down the road. The motivation to go fast has to have the basic skills behind it AND has to be internalized. How a student gets to the place where they have both the skill and lack of fear varies depending on their makeup.

This argument comes from the same place as does the "no stopwatches" philosophy. To those who say that you can't know if you improve without timing laps, I suggest that if you can't identify what you did to improve the lap time, absent the stopwatch you are going to have a difficult time replicating it later.

Focus on developing their skills and quite literally the speed will come.

K

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Honda318dx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I yell so loud they push the gas pedal harder to try to get away from me, works great! </TD></TR></TABLE>


More like call them a ***** and beat on the dashboard

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">To those who say that you can't know if you improve without timing laps, I suggest that if you can't identify what you did to improve the lap time, absent the stopwatch you are going to have a difficult time replicating it later.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You dont have a watch on them but you can pay attention to the tachometer at various points on track.

RJ

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

You dont have a watch on them but you can pay attention to the tachometer at various points on track.

RJ</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why? You should know how fast they are going without watching their tach. Knestis is right. If you focus on the person and what that person is doing, the speed will naturally follow.

When I was driving my Vette, I covered the speedometer so I wouldn't know how fast I was going. Not that I really didn't know based on the tach, but somehow the number in MPH was intimidating. 135 down the 1st turn at Bridgehampton (even though I knew I was pushing the tach) made me want to slow down. The sound of the engine told me I was pushing it. Didn't need anything else.

I contend also the consistancy and smoothness will bring the person up to speed without a push.

Concentrate on what the person needs to change themself to get them to go faster.

 

I start by pushing them to be faster where/when it is safe. I don't tell them to take the corner faster, I'll wait until I know that they have slowed enough to go to full throttle from where they are to the exit, and then I'll yell, "Go! Go! Go! Full throttle! Floor it!" That helps encourage the slow in, fast out mentality, and doesn't put anybody at risk of an incident.

Matt

 

first thing i have asked all my students is....

WHAT DO YOU WANT OUT OF THIS EVENT?

then that determines my approach to "instructing" the student....some guys want to be fast....some want to have fun in their car....some just wnat to see what all the hype is about being on track.

i try not to instruct unless it is needed.....i like to point out the turn in, apex, track out and then shut up for awhile and let the student drive...if they are having trouble then i'll say something....

one guy i instructed in az....all i said to him all weekend was GREAT JOB...good turn in...good reaction to traffic etc....great guy and he was even in a porscha...hehe

i'm not really comfortable pushing a novice student to the car's limit....because they are not going to have the knowledge of what to do when they get in trouble...

overall ask them what they want....ask them if they want you to push them....and go from there

 

 

oops.

me = moron


Modified by Doctor CorteZ at 7:30 AM 8/11/2003

 

As a novice to track days I figured I'd offer some perspective from the other seat.

It seems I've had a full spectrum of instructors, from those who say very little to those who've pushed me beyond what I thought I, or the car, could do.

What I've found is I learned more by riding along with instructors. I think I gained confidence in seeing how smooth and fast someone can drive. It give me a goal to shoot for without the risk to me or the intstructor of messing up.

Of course then their's my most memorable session where I was pushed beyond my perceived limits. Two wheels off after missing the apex @ T9 (s.p.), bad insticts had me lifting, instructor yelled gas, and pointed the car off.

But in thinking about it, it wasn't the off that made the biggest impression. It was when I was driving fast, though sections that I'd never even seen that fast before that made the biggest impression. With no point of reference, the fear factor was huge. Is that safe? To the instructor perhaps, he seemed extremely confident that he could drive my car as well from the passenger seat.
It wasn't until the end of the session that he proved that with the "off".

I think the level of "push" depends on the instructor's comfort with the student and with his/her own abilities.

The age-old phrase: Teach by example?

The other things to consider, for me anyway as a student, is can I walk away from a mistake: rollcage/safety equipment & money/value of the car.

2 cents.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lees Z &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why? You should know how fast they are going without watching their tach. Knestis is right. If you focus on the person and what that person is doing, the speed will naturally follow.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I know if they are going faster. I can feel it on the butt dyno, and i can tell if they are using more revs before each shift that they are pushing harder. But looking at incremental improvements - say they took a slightly different line, or opened the wheel sooner or compressed the braking zone - if they are up 200rpm on the tach in the same gear into the next braking zone, they are going faster.

I know that if you work with them the speed comes. But some students may not be as aggressive as others - and some just need to be kicked in the *** to go faster

 

Chad makes an EXCELLENT point.

 

Let them push themselves entirely, give them the appropriate feedback/confidence necessary but the decision to push should not be from the instructor IMO. The instructor's job is to reel them in or encourage them to continue but not to set the tone. When they get to the point that they are safe and showing good decisions out there then maybe getting out of the car and letting them push on their own is the best bet ... but always make sure you are standing on pit wall (and I have gone to turns to watch and give them feedback after the session from what I could see) and watching them so they know they aren't done being safe and showing good decisions (I have found they are pretty much spot on reliable with this).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phat-S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Let them push themselves entirely, give them the appropriate feedback/confidence necessary but the decision to push should not be from the instructor IMO.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree. The HPDE should be a fun and safe event, not a stress-filled one. My job is to help them go as fast as they want to go. I want my student to understand the line and understand that the car can go faster on the line than off the line (so that he can recognize when he can, and can't, go faster). I am more than happy to tell the student that "You can brake later / accelerate sooner etc if you are comfortable doing so" - IOW, leaving the option up to them. But the decision to go beyond their comfort zone (or, to expand their comfort zone) has to be theirs, not mine.

I also agree with emwavey regarding letting them ride with me in the instructor session. I have seen all too often instances where the student was slow, was driving safely but just didn't want to go any faster because he wasn't comfortable doing so - until he got a ride with me, saw how fast a car could go, and then demonstrated a quantum leap in how fast he was going. Very common...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Honda318dx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I yell so loud they push the gas pedal harder to try to get away from me, works great! </TD></TR></TABLE>

Corey, you're a wonderful instructor, but you have to be careful how you pronounce things when you're doing all that yelling. To a yankee, "LAY-UFT!" ("left") sounds too much like "LIFT!"

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When is it appropriate to push a student to go faster? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I almost never do this any more. Once in a while I will make some mild suggestion like "you could use a little more throttle in no-name" or "you could carry a couple more mph into t10" or something like that but I always let the decision to go faster be theirs.

What I do try to always do is be really enthusiastic when they do something well. Even then, I try to make sure they dont overdo it, like "your entry speed to t10 was perfect that time, but if you try to go in any faster its not going to work"

just my $.02

joel

 

Most recently at VIR, my instructor would help me learn an efficient "fast" line through each corner. After I had demonstrated I could run it consistently, he would tell me on the next lap approaching the same corner "you CAN brake later for this" or "you CAN carry more speed here". The keyword was CAN. This indicated to me HE was comfortable trying something if I was. I didn't feel pressured. I tried everything he suggested anyways, and improved because of it. IMO, you need to force the fundamentals on students to keep them safe and having fun. They will be getting around the track fairly quickly as a result. Further pace improvement can be sought by telling them what they CAN do, but reminding them they need to keep the basics in mind (ie, run the same line through the section after, remembering that you will need to adjust your braking points to compensate for the extra speed you will be carrying)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phat-S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Let them push themselves entirely, give them the appropriate feedback/confidence necessary but the decision to push should not be from the instructor IMO. The instructor's job is to reel them in or encourage them to continue but not to set the tone. When they get to the point that they are safe and showing good decisions out there then maybe getting out of the car and letting them push on their own is the best bet ... but always make sure you are standing on pit wall (and I have gone to turns to watch and give them feedback after the session from what I could see) and watching them so they know they aren't done being safe and showing good decisions (I have found they are pretty much spot on reliable with this).
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree with you also.

Here I have to say that when I started driving, the inly instruction I got was following a line of Corvettes around the head driver who was the instructor. Fisrst thing I learned was..... be the first on line

I actually learned more from following a GOOD driver than having someone in the car with me. I could concentrate on his line, look for braking points, watch how he took different situations. It's still the way I learn best to this day and sometimes I think that it's not the worst way to learn.

I was able to keep up as long as my courage held on. He knew what my CAR was capable of, and he taught me to get over the fear of speed by showing me the safe lines. Then when I practiced by myself, I knew what I was doing.

I can't say if this is better, worse or comparable. It's just the way things were done a while back.

I still adhere to what both phat-S and Knestis say in this day and age

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When is it appropriate to push a student to go faster? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I can only offer help as a student, but i think communication is the key to going faster.

Pay attentin to the student's movement and posture. If they are jerking the wheel, have a death grip on the wheel, rough shifts, etc, then i don't think they are ready to go faster. Make sure the student can trust you and your ski11Z, and make sure to explain "why" you want the student to do something different.

My first DE was in the rain and my instuctor was use to driving a trailored 968. I had very little trust in my instuctor because i had no idea what his goals for teaching were. On the second lap he grabbed the wheel when i was going through a turn (in the rain), which completely startled me and diminished our communication. It wasn't until the next DE, with another instructor, that i realized what he was trying to show me about my line. Because i had a better instructor the second time and she explained why i should take a line a certain way.

Of course now i've learned to ask if they don't tell, but that's a different story .

 

I cannot even FATHOM any reason for an instructor putting his hands on the controls while riding along...

K

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I cannot even FATHOM any reason for an instructor putting his hands on the controls while riding along...</TD></TR></TABLE> After telling a student for 5 laps in a row not to turn in so much... you ask them if you can... and then you do it (touch the wheel).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Willard &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> After telling a student for 5 laps in a row not to turn in so much... you ask them if you can... and then you do it (touch the wheel).</TD></TR></TABLE>


then and only then would i touch the steering wheel....after it had been discussed with the student...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by emwavey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What I've found is I learned more by riding along with instructors. I think I gained confidence in seeing how smooth and fast someone can drive. It give me a goal to shoot for without the risk to me or the intstructor of messing up.

The age-old phrase: Teach by example?

.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The best instruction I got, was when I DEMANDED my instructor take out my car and show me what the car was cabable of. I know the car really well, but my "comfort zone" lied within autocross speeds. Whence I saw the tires would hold at 80 mph around 5 at The Glen, I became more confident trying it myself as I increase that "comfort zone". Later braking ensued and staying on the "loud pedal" longer brought faster lap times and increase awareness of the handling capabilities of the car. I would consider myself an "accelerated first timer" as I have over 10 years autocrossing / car control experience, but my goal was to have fun, see a great track, push my limits a little and ultimately drive everything home in the same condition I came in (less 2 tanks of gas). I appreciate the fact that my first instructor asked what I wanted from the event, and even though I had car control experience, was not frustrating in taking it slow so I could explore MY limits and HE would test the car to keep us both safe.

Then I was thrilled when he blasted me out in his M3 (E36). Corned so hard it hurt my ribs, and braked so hard it took my breath away. I felt safe, but this pressed my limits for my first track experience. I'd do it again, and change nothing...

Jeff

(excuse any spelling errors, spell check down)