Something Karen said in a different thread got me to thinking about something...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CamaroFS34 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Too many people think that it's their equipment holding them back, when the truth hurts -- it's them.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sure, that's usually the case. But sometimes it's not. So then, my question for the board:

At what point, during one's development as a driver, is it reasonable to look to the equipment for the answers?

We've got a pretty diverse range of experience levels here, so I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

 

Karl, that is an interesting point to think about. I knew this guy who used to shoot IPSC pistol competitions. A whole session can be done in something like 10-15 seconds, and he was somwhere around 6 seconds off the pace. He would always blame the gun. The trigger this and the hammer that, holster blah blah. These items would cost him thousands to take 10ths of seconds off his time, when "HE" was 6 seconds out. He needed to work on himself more than anything, but would never admit to it.

I know this relates to racing in a big way I think, and am guilty of myself, although I try to keep things a little in perspective at the same time.

Jim-who bought a rear camber kit for his car today looking for a faster time...

 

There is always going to be room for improvement in driving, but equipment can also hold you back any time too. One time this year this has happened to me. I went from winning by a margin of over a second to losing to people who normally wouldn't be close to me. I had been changing the setings on my car at the time. I also had another good driver co-drive with me(brian flanigan) and we were .05 seconds different on our best times. We both had the same complaint about the car so I went on further to try and find what the problem was. For awhile I thought it might be my own driving that was causing me to be slower, but after I fixed it I got right back into the spots where I thougth I should have been. This has just been one of my experiences where the equipment was to blame.

 

[QUOTE=krshultz]At what point, during one's development as a driver, is it reasonable to look to the equipment for the answers?QUOTE]

hi karl.

i think the determination here between equipment and driver is fairly easily answered.... ask someone you trust, who is familiar with your particular type of car, to drive it on a track you are familiar with. ride with him/her if possible. afterwards, ask their opinion.

hopefully will answer you questions....

good luck and i hope to see you racing again real SOON, Karl. i'll share a piece of track with you ANYTIME.

 

I agree with Todd. I have said over and over that I want someone like Tom Fowler to drive my car. Perhaps you would benefit from this as well. I think as a driver you need to know where you are. Some kind of a yard stick is required. And you can't get that between cars. The other H3 cars might just be faster or better setup than yours. Or not. I would love to attend a Comp School II. With all pro or very good and fast drivers that would critique each student, actually drive their car and provide feedback. Preferably real time. If I do get to race again I would love to put a 2nd seat in the car so I could swap back and forth with these drivers. Anyway, just ramblings but I think this type of school would be great. Something more affordable than Bondurant etc.

 

Good point Chris...

When I first got my car I thought I was Speedracer fast, until I allowed my instructor to drive. OK so now I understood what could be done and how far I needed to improve. It wasn't til after my first season did I get into the suspension.

I guess it all comes down to self awareness. It's too easy in this sport to dump a huge wad into something that will gain you a half a second, where the same dollars can be spent on seat time and yield twice that.

I have tried to stick with the trilogy of speed: (shared by a championship driver up here)

1- Driver development.
2- Suspension development
3- Engine development

 

Dude.

Seat time, seat time, seat time.

I had 4 days at VIR-North in the H4 car in the few months before last weekend. That's exactly what kept me from royally sucking. I *never* had to think about how to drive the car.

Drive that damn car whenever, wherever you can. ESPECIALLY after you make changes!

 

Read the second posting on this forum get the clue and stop guessing!

Read here http://www.vcmc.ca/ubb/ultimat...00001

Quote from the Phantom (Joe Chung) "With data logged, it's much easier to pin point engine problems, chassis problems and driver problems. It takes guessing out of the picture. Carroll Smith gave a tech presentation at last year's SCCA Nationals and he said "...assuming all things are equal, the team with data logging capability will be faster than the team without....". I don't think anyone could make it any plainer that that. "

 

Im an autoxer but I feel some things go hand in hand.

Discipline is the key. Staying to a game plan.

Something that we hear all the time but always suprise's us is the faster you go the slower your times...well I was out about a week ago (on a track I designed none the less) and had a best time of 1.28.28. My god son shows up and I decide to take him on my last run and because its the first time he's been out I tell him we'll take it easy...ran a 1.29.43

Either I will take a section super sweet and take that confidence into the next section and make a mistake or I will make even the smallest error and try to force some time saving manuever in the wrong spot.

So my .02 cents is Discipline.

 

I agree with others that equipment is easy to blame, therefore take it out of the equation. I think you should start out with equipment that is equal too or close to what your competition is running. It is so easy to get out of a car and say he is 3 seconds faster because of Toyo verses Hoosier or he has a .040 over motor whatever the excuse might be, when in truth, at most these differences make up only a couple of tenths. Coming up with excuses keeps you from learning and pushing yourself.
I know that the budget isn't always there to have the best stuff, so put somebody in your car that can get the most out of it and compare yourself to them. If they can put your car within a second of the leaders, then you will know where you should stand.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by metalworker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so put somebody in your car that can get the most out of it and compare yourself to them.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Is that an offer?

It won't be at LMS (it's broken and I can't afford to fix it right now) but I'd love to get you to drive it.

 

Swapping drivers is the easiest way to determine who or what to blame. I have always been faster than my dad and for a long time he said that my car was the faster car and made up a large portion of the difference between us. He said it jokingly many times but I know that he kind of believed it.

Last year I had a breakdown at CMP. Given my contention for points last year, he unselfishly let me borrow his car for the Sunday race. Even though I had never driven the car or even sat in the seat (because of roll cage that isn't built for large men like myself) I bettered his best time by a good 4 seconds and my own by a half of a second. Ever since that day he has stopped blaming the car. Now he says it's the car's responsibility to make up for what the driver lacks.

 

I love the ego knock-down you get when someone drives your car (who maybe has NEVER driven your car before) and they destroy your time. Always good for putting you in your place.

I never thought I was too terribly great at dodging cones, and when I let one of our regions FTD'ers drive the R last year when I was autocrossing, I was blown away with not only his time in my car, but the way he drove it. I would have never dreamed of driving my car in the manner in which he did. And I thought I was on the edge - I'd describe the experience as "violent" at the very least.

Ben, who still needs someone "fast" to drive the hatch so I can be humbled in road racing as well

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chrisb &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would love to attend a Comp School II. With all pro or very good and fast drivers that would critique each student, actually drive their car and provide feedback.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, a "Stage Two" comp school would be wonderful. Around here (Southeast) I worry that it would be underattended, and as a result, never hapen...but who knows?

I'll float the idea to the "powers that be" and see if anyone bites.

Keep the comments coming. I'd in particular like to hear from Rinde, Muresan, Giles, Grimes, and, well, basically anyone. Let's make this one of the "old school" honda-tech rr/ax threads.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Is that an offer?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
It wasn't intended to be, but HELL YEA, I'll drive anything, even if you've worked on it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by metalworker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It wasn't intended to be, but HELL YEA, I'll drive anything, even if you've worked on it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

IM sent. Let's talk. Email is karl@honda-challenge.com.

Now, on to our regularly scheduled program. What do you all think of the driver versus car thing?

 

It's been touched before in this thread, but I'll go a little bit more in depth.

It's always best to start out small, and get to know your car and it's characteristics. I remember my first few autocrosses, all i had was a set of BFG autocross tires, stock suspension on my '90 Si, stock everything. I just went out, tried to understand how the car reacted to my inputs, how to be smooth, and how to be fast. Once you learn the limits of the CAR, you can start improving on YOUR skills.

There will be a time when you are completely comfortable with the car, but you are still being beat by others. This is the time to upgrade parts. Make smart choices here as well, don't get caught up in a pricing game, save your money for the good stuff like Koni shocks and GC coilovers... (that's what I've been instructed to do atleast.) I started off the wrong way and went with the cheaper KYB shocks, and noticed NO difference at all from the stock shocks. Waste of money, shoud've gone with the Koni's.

Anyways, when and if you ever decide to start modifying the car, you will have to re-learn it's characteristics once again, it will drive completely different. Hopefully it is different in a GOOD way (loose) not in a bad way (tight).

Hope this all helps out?

 

I think it starts to be an equiptment problem when the car is hampering your learning as a driver. I'm about at that point with my car due to the stock 175-70-13 Kuhmo 722 tires. Its hard to push yourself faster when you're woefully out of grip. Then again, tires are a pretty obvious thing though. Suspension issues would probably depend mainly on your driving style, once its developed.

 

Get someone else to drive it. If multiple people think the car is crap... the odds of that being true are greater. Particularly good if you can get someone who can tell you how to make it NOT crap. I'm always willing to put potentially faster people into my car if possible... if they're going faster in MY car, that means there's something I need to learn about driving it. That gets the car variable out of the way. Then work on the driver... and relax enough to get your head in the game. Changing the way I apply pressure to myself has helped me a LOT. I actually enjoy events and seem to do better.

 

This is a very thought-provoking question, Karl! Here's my 2 cents (hopefully worth at least half that much at this late hour, lol)...

As has been echoed here repeatedly from those who know, first the problem is the driver not the car. Then at a point, the development of both runs in relative parallel. The car can't get faster without a good driver, but the driver can't get faster without a car that will do what he/she wants it to do. For instance, once you know what understeer really is because you've felt it and documented your lap times/exit speeds/etc as a result, you learn that you don't want it, and you make changes to get rid of it. You're told "loose is fast" but you're given a bunch of options on how to make your car "loose"... and at the same time you want it loose but not too loose, or else you're a drift competitor.

Sooner or later you've gotten a mental ideal for the car - a perfect vision that your comfort and speed is constantly compared to. You want oversteer with bigger rear swaybar on this track in this crucial corner, and traction to both wheels with an LSD on this other track in this other crucial corner, and so on. Also sooner or later you're pissed off unless the car does this thing here and that thing there, because your brain wants it to always be perfect and reality puts its big black boot in the *** of that utopian pipe dream. (You simply can't set a car up for every track in every condition unless you're infinitely funded, which so very few amateurs are.)

What you're left with as a result in most cases is more questions than answers, or settling for 9.5/10th's when you really want 11/10th's, because otherwise you're so radically changing the car all the time that you'll end up being more confused than if you just stuck with a reasonable setup or three and hammered your *** in the seat as much as you could afford to get that last bit of awareness in any way possible. (Note: this is for the "mere mortals" who can't afford the time or money to change final drive ratios and/or spring rates and/or alignment settings for every track in every condition... those folks should go run World Challenge or Grand-Am Cup or whatever instead, IMHO.)

Sure, you can make some changes to the car. Little changes, inspired by your competitors and better drivers giving opinions and such. But at the end of the day it is your brain that has to get around its own perceptions. Hate is hate, but learning to turn hate 180 degrees into love is a virtual impossibility. Things change with regard to track conditions and car setup from event to event and year to year, but not by three seconds a lap (unless some radical change has been made of course...)

The analogy I would make in this situation is with a toaster. Sometimes you're early getting up for work and the bagel pops out quickly with the perfect light brown outside crunchiness before you even go turn the shower on, but sometimes when you're late for work and unshowered, the damn thing takes forever and burns the bagel you'll eat on the way to work to a crisp. The idea is that it's all about the perception... the toaster never takes less or more time to toast the bagel, and its toast settings never change, but sometimes you love the **** and sometimes you hate it.

Point? Oh yeah... there is no point, because there is no answer, Karl. There is only reasonable inspiration. And inspiration is what you need. If you want it bad enough, you'll get there; you'll make it happen somehow. If it doesn't still make you giggle like a schoolgirl... time to pick up golfing or fishing or whatever else floats your boat IMHO.

Advice? **** man, I have no advice for you because you're further along in the evolution of car and driver than myself. I'd say "seat time" because it lets you fix the looosest nut (behind the wheel) but as an outsider looking in, I think maybe it's time for a new plan in your case. Then again my opinion is an unqualified opinion for sure. For me, it's always been a lot easier to blame the car than sit down and really figure out why I'm slow. And what I personally always come back to is the need for seat time... the need to get more comfortable and consistent and etc. But that's me, and this is you, so don't read too much into it.

PS- I'll admit to late night Rolling Rock-induced ramblings... but I'll also sincerely hope they help in some small way. Good luck Karl!!!

Time for bed,

Jon

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MEANB18 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...Once you learn the limits of the CAR, you can start improving on YOUR skills. ...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Metalworker has a very good point that I'm afraid a lot of people miss. The problem with "starting out small" is that there are always excuses built - or not built - into the car. People spend some time learning to drive an undeveloped car until their times plateau then incorrectly assume that it is the car that is holding them back. This is when you have a real shoe step in to set the bar.

Another fallacy is the "seat time, seat time, seat time" generalization. Because of the price of admission, we tend to write a check for track time only when we send in a race entry - this means that we are always "in a game" rather than "at practice." Even "practice" sessions/runs are typically used to see how fast the car/driver combination will go. Any of you who have coached or participated on an athetic team, try to envision what it would be like if every time the team met, it was to compete. When would you drill? Do skill-development exercises?

When you go on the track, do you have a prioritized list of specific things to change - with respect to driver behaviors - or do you just think "go faster"? Do you debrief those changes when the session ends? Are you willing to get segment times during a session rather than knowing lap times? When you want to change your line, do you think about the line or what you need to do with your hands, feet, and EYES to make that change? I never coached baseball but I wouldn't dream of telling a batter to "hit the ball over the fence," rather than telling him/her what changes to make to stance, hand movement, or whatever: Next time you are at an HPDE and an instructor says, "You need to hit that apex later," ask them how...

K

 

Theres no need to go any further.
Put Walt in the car and get all your questions answered. My guess is that he'll only need a couple of laps. He'll either pull it in and say "This thing is a shitbox" or destroy your best ever lap on his 2nd or 3rd time by. Either way, question answered.

Kind of like with my car at Road Atlanta 2 weeks ago. I started the weekend fearful that the new car would dramatically break and absolutely positive that it was impossible to drive competitively without improved gearing. We finished the weekend with 250 miles on the odo, a 2nd place SARRC trophy and an enduro pole that was less than 1 second of the track record.
So much for my expectations huh?

Find a way to get Walt in the seat. He's going to be in mine the first time an opportunity arrives.

Scott, who thinks Walt's race car sluttiness benefits all of us SE guys.

PS - I considered getting Blake and Walt to drive my car for the ARRC enduro, but I have no desire to get the car moved up to ITB .

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...At what point, during one's development as a driver, is it reasonable to look to the equipment for the answers?

We've got a pretty diverse range of experience levels here, so I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this.</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's an impossible question.

If a driver is serious they never stop working on their development - never. Never.

And it's unreasonable to suggest that the yardstick never change - that their development be somehow subordinate to the measurement of it - that doesn't sound like fun. Setup and tuning are an integral part of being a modern racing driver - and they're fun too.

When then is it appropriate and useful to change the car?

Shouldn't a beginning driver start on a reasonably balanced setup - one without serious vices? Then as their development proceeds they could be introduced to marginal conditions.

Who gets such an ideal path? Few probably. We start with what we've got.

So you got thru most of that. You've learned the hard way, on your own, and you drive well enough - you're a typical club racer.

The speed improvement curve typically has a curve that's steep in the beginning and flattens out as you go. Investment of time and effort will eventually show diminishing returns. Often times drivers mistake a sub peak local flattening for the absolute limit they thought they were converging on. That would be when a driver most needs outside help and perspective.

If you were to put a recognized shoe into your drivers seat and they showed you that you've got a long way to go, that would be pretty unequivocal.

Or if you were running in a Spec Class with decently maintained hardware and you were off the back, that would be pretty unequivocal.

But what if you're running in a class with diverse hardware and your only point of reference is your finishing position. Nobody's running your particular machine locally, or anywhere else for that matter. And how many people are you really going to trust to drive your car - really?

And if they don't go faster, what does that prove? What if you're getting about all there is out of the car. You can always argue the matter over a couple of tenths, but you're close enough.

There's no getting around that racing cars is hard. Utimately you can find yourself working very hard for very little gain. And everyone has a different balance point.

Can you see how it's all the same thing? You drive the driver like you drive the tires.

Do you want to go faster so you can beat somebody in particular?

Do you want to measure yourself against the best?

Why are you playing this game?

Self confidence is an enormous part of racing. You trust your judgement enough to get in the car and race right? Why is it different with respect to your own measurement?

You can look around and play the numbers games. Who turned what where against whom. No matter what you do you're only going to get so close. Eventually you have to trust yourself.

And lets say that you turn out to be really fast. Even the fastest. What do you get for it? The best things in life defy measurement.

Measurement. It's a useful tool. Don't you be the tool.

Scott, who is currently working on his tools...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Another fallacy is the "seat time, seat time, seat time" generalization. </TD></TR></TABLE>

But if all you are doing during this excess of seat time is open loop driving and not changing the way you do things such as your braking points, turn ins and lines - then you're wasting your time and your tires and only digging yourself deeper.

In order to push yourself faster you need to be relaxed, open your mind up to new ideas and new lines and push yourself outside of that comfort zone pace that its so easy to fall into... all IMO.

I picked up alot of exit speed in T7 at VIR-N last weekend... i was turning in way too late (and too much), scrubbing off speed (and momentum lugging up the hill) and not using the whole track.

 

Karl, I told you this Friday night and I'll say it here: I have trouble believing that YOU are three seconds slower. At every track. With a better car. We've been driving together for 5 years now, and if there's one thing you are, it's consistent. I really don't think that last years version of your car (bolt in cage with open diff) was a better setup than this years version (pimpy 8pt welded cage, Type R diff, MUCH better shocks).

1) Compression and Leak-down. You can probably do it this week easily. Even with all the other busted stuff on the car. You already know you're down on power to Phil. 5-6 whp is significant at the level you guys are driving.

2) Put Walt in your car at CMP (what a great idea! Why didn't we think of that Friday night?) If step one is inconclusive, this should remove all doubt. No doubt I expect someone of Walt's ability to be quicker, but if he's 4 seconds faster, I'll be stunned.

My money is on the uber-motor isn't so uber anymore after 50 weekends and 125,000miles....

Edit: just wanted to remind everyone we're talking about a Bondurant graduate who last year went out and took several poles and several fast race laps with inferior equiptment.


Modified by MaddMatt at 11:17 AM 8/10/2003