Okay...

IT2 is a dead option, thanks to the SCCA's insistence on returning the conversation to competition adjustments (bleah) in IT. Spec series are obviously where it's at so how about SpecEX? Rules:

** Any '92-newer Honda Civic EX is eligible - 2- or 4-door
** All cars are prepared to IT rules
** All run to one easy-to-meet minimum weight (although technology increases might warrant minor breaks for the older cars)

Kirk

 

We were talking of something similar at the track this past weekend, but more of a spec hybrid. Something like a stock B16a, in any Honda, with a class weight.

 

I still think one body style (EG hatch for instance) makes the most sense and sets the class apart from the others. That is if it is included as a HC class.

 

If the class name is 'SEX', I'm in...

 

How bout "SpecHC" as in Hatch Crap? Any 92-00 hatch with any d-series engine update/backdate allowance that was available in those years. Maybe even throw in the 88-91 jobs too with some sorta weight limit...

So one could run say, a 92CX with a 95Si motor. Or a 98CX with a 98 EX 127hp motor... Or an 88cx with the 91Si motor. The motors would have to come from the same generation...

Maybe i'm talking talking outta my ****, but just throwing ideas out there.

 

How about this,

Instead of the EX, how about the CRX si, because they are much more supported by the aftermarket - brakes and other odds and ends, and I think the kids like them better too. They are probably cheaper. Everybody run the same shock, KONI, because they are fairly cheap and work well. Set the spring rate at say 550 f, 700 rear or something like that. I' m sure Lee Grimes can help in that department. Decide on a spec tire, Hoosier or probably Toyo. Make all the other rules follow IT just for simplicity.
If you do the work yourself, I think you could probably put it all together for around $9000.00, 6,500 if you can do all your own fab, 4500 if you can build a motor. I think it would be a pretty good package.


OOPS - I just describe the cars that are leading the points in SE Div.'s ECR series, and PRO IT. with several cars identically prepared right behind them.

 

I agree with spec suspension and all but disagree about the CRX simply due to the fact the CRX, even though a great race car, came before the real import "revolution". The EG is the first of the "imports" and would be likely attract more potential sponsors and have a more significant fan base.

 

Har-dee-har-har, Walt.

We are talking racing CARS here, not those dinky little thingies...

K

(who doesn't really know WHY he doesn't like Miatae and CRXen)

 

Kirk,
Are you trying to drive the cost of my chosen car?

The problem with it being only 'hatches is that there aren't that many of them (as compared to the other models). Add to the fact that they are already overpriced here in Cali (other places too?) since they are the hybrid starting point of choice......

 

Sorry - my omission, not by plan. No reason that the Si hatch shouldn't be included. For that matter, make it ANY civic of those generations, with an EX engine - all at the same weight...

K

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rickpeak &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I agree with spec suspension and all but disagree about the CRX simply due to the fact the CRX, even though a great race car, came before the real import "revolution". The EG is the first of the "imports" and would be likely attract more potential sponsors and have a more significant fan base.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

rickpeak, do you remember Kamei body kits?

Kirk, have you driven an ITA CRX, Miata or Spec Miata? They are fun as hell to drive. Rent a CRX sometime for a SARRC race, I bet I could even find you a competitive one for sale

Actually I do have a question on the idea of Spec FWD though. I am coming from the (right or wrong) perspective of a standard suspension kit. So considering that and that there seems to be a wide variance as to how loose/tight folks tend to build FF cars - would you be providing an allowance to run enough of a suspension difference to allow for this (sways or even different springs - I, as you can tell, am not familar with SM rules enough to know this already)? Just curious (if I understood the original intent posted).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
IT2 is a dead option, thanks to the SCCA's insistence on returning the conversation to competition adjustments (bleah) in IT. Spec series are obviously where it's at so how about SpecEX? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I think there must be a little birdy or evil head-like growth sitting on Kirk's shoulder whispering in his ear "EX..EX" and it just won't go away. He just can't let it go no matter how many times he gets beaten down and told "No"" by governing bodies. Unless you are sitting on a cache of EXs somewhere "buried back up a holler" in North Carolina (for those who don't speak Rural Southern you'd call it a "hollow" or narrow valley), follow the philospher and "Let it go". From those dumb Red Bull commercials we are reminded of Sysiphus (sp?) doomed to push a boulder uphill for eternity. Kirk's boulder is the EX.

I like Walt's idea and use the CRX for a spec series. SpecRex or SpecWrecks if you have a bad weekend. Cheap, fast, light, very sporty, proven reliable, cars and parts are everywhere, etc. I could come up with sealed, revalved spec KONIs at a special price if someone wanted to go that way. What do you mean the CRX is too old for then Import Revolution? The John Morton/Peter Brock BRE Datsun 510 did that in 1972, all the rest of us are following through the door they opened.

 

...and the 510 wasn't a 2-seater with the frontal area of a pack of cigarettes. Grr.

Yeah, I gotta soft spot for the EX but it's just so damn sad to see the REAL conceptual grandchildren of the 510 (and the Rabbit GTI) going to waste. They have such a great fun:dollar ratio, they seem accessible to the everyday guy/gal on the street, and they are plentiful...

Consider that there are 15 '92-95 Coupes and 90+ '96-99 Coupes on cars.com within 250 miles of me, while there are THREE '89-91 CRX Si's. OK, that isn't very scientific since older cars don't turn up on retail used sites like that but what happens when the CRX becomes eligible for vintage racing?

Lee will understand this: When I joined SCCA, the Porsche 356 was reacing classic status - they were becoming scarce enough that they weren't viable race cars, and were getting restored instead. They were about as old as I was (20+ years). The '91 CRX will reach that same threshold in less than a decade and will seem REALLY OLD to prospective new, young members interested in club racing.

Frankly - as my efforts with IT2 suggest - it doesn't HAVE to be the Civic in my mind, but that concept isn't gaining any traction. If the NEON weren't subject to quality problems, I would be more excited about that route. The Nissan SE-R's are great as well. Even the BMW 318 twincam would be WONDERFUL on the track - who would be stupid enough to race one classified as it is in S against its baby brother with the bigger engine? I walk through my neighborhood and see grids of these perfectly good cars sitting in strip mall parking lots and know that none of them will ever see the race track...

I'm one of those liberal left-coasters remember, so I see value in "diversity" as well. The point was made elsewhere that a car has to "turn your crank" if you are going to have the sicko kind of relationship with it that club racing requires. Club racing is simply going to be healthier, more insteresting, and more viable if there are lots of kinds of cars represented on the track. Yes - a 50 car grid of ITA CRXs would be an awesome race, just like Renault Cup was back when I was a punk kid with Flock of Seagulls hair, but long-term, participant interest in an amateur series kind of demands choice.

Sisyphus

EDIT - looking back at my tirade, it is probably NOT an accident that there are spec series in the USA for all three of the options that I listed - although I didn't plan it that way. SpecNEON, SE-R Cup (two classes?), and now the e30 Cup all poach participants out of the IT pool.

 

Kirk, i'm afraid you've just gone mad now.

I do have the solution for you though..... It too is classed in ITA

 

I should have said the latest import revolution

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Yeah, I gotta soft spot for the EX but it's just so damn sad to see the REAL conceptual grandchildren of the 510 (and the Rabbit GTI) going to waste.
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Yo, Flock of Seagulls , remember that the CRX was a four seater in other countries, just not here. It too has some 510 heritage, sans trunklid.

I am on the same page as you on the any Honda chassis, spec engine and weight. I was thinking it would be funner though if you had one of the Honda race engines of choice in the B16a, which also was stock in the CRX in other countries.

So you could have a '91 CRX with a B16, and a '98 EX coupe with a B16 both at a race weight of say ~2400lbs, as well as any other Honda in between. In conference last weekend, there were a bunch of Hondas, but only two or three in each class. Only my Honda in my class. It would be pretty cool to have a class where we all could race together with a simple engine swap.

my .02

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Lee will understand this: When I joined SCCA, the Porsche 356 was reaching classic status - they were becoming scarce enough that they weren't viable race cars, and were getting restored instead. They were about as old as I was (20+ years). The '91 CRX will reach that same threshold in less than a decade and will seem REALLY OLD to prospective new, young members interested in club racing.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

True, extinction will always be an issue regardless if it is because the car was rare and not many last that long or if it was common as dirt and they generally get chewed up and discarded and before you know it they are scarce. Every car including 2004 models will be vintage eligible at some time so you can't stop the march of time. Probably Spec RX7 has held it off longer than anything so far. My problem is that spec cars with cost cutting at a level as high or higher than performance like SRX7 are unappetizing. I've had some seat time in ITA RX7s years ago (pretty fun) but the thought of a base 12A RX7 on skinny OE 13s and Toyos,and soft springs and non-adjustable shocks, etc. just doesn't "turn my crank" one iota.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Flock of Seagulls hair</TD></TR></TABLE>

That was the second time today I thought of that hairdo. I was sitting in the barber chair noting that the hair on the back of my head grows faster at my age than my slowly receding hairline. I 've heard of a "comb over" but a "comb forward" would be what the Flock of Seagulls will be remembered for more than their music.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Club racing is simply going to be healthier, more interesting, and more viable if there are lots of kinds of cars represented on the track. ....but long-term, participant interest in an amateur series kind of demands choice.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Agreed, if folks are going to amateur race on their own nickel for their own edification, then multi-car classes are going to be the healthiest route until someone develops the generic Universalmobile that everyone loves and fits everyone's fancy (don't hold your breath). Limitations in the way of spec classes is really just simply a limitation.

HC offers 5 classes, SCCA has something like 26ish in club racing and similar numbers in Solo II, don't know the NASA count but it is pretty diverse too. Rather than trying to create more classes for the common good and future of motorsport itself, better that we just individually find a car and class that "turns your crank" and go do it now. I see all these threads about the fun these folks had at VIR last weekend (many of whom I met at Hyperfest so I can put names to faces and cars) and realize that I need to get my *** on track and soon.

 

Um why not just build a Honda Challenge car instead of trying to create a useless class

SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY overweight single cam tourqueless sunroof equiped econo boxes go head to head in the pit of DOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MaddMatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If the class name is 'SEX', I'm in...</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm with Matt here. I'd sell the ITA/H4 car. Imagine the marketing potential...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MaddMatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If the class name is 'SEX', I'm in...</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

I'm just an Auto-xer in his rookie year, so I really don't know all of the rules / classes in RR, but some things I noticed while reading this thread:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JHill &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am on the same page as you on the any Honda chassis, spec engine and weight. I was thinking it would be funner though if you had one of the Honda race engines of choice in the B16a, which also was stock in the CRX in other countries.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The Drag / Street racing frenzy is quickly making the B16 a rarer and rarer find. and if you did limit the field to 92+ they all had a D16 VTEC model available that have a lot more potential than they're given credit for. And if you do want to include 88+ civics / CRXs, the lack of VTEC availability could be offset by thier lighter weight.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">** Any '92-newer Honda Civic EX is eligible - 2- or 4-door</TD></TR></TABLE>

would you include the '02+ Civic with the Mac. strut suspension? would that cause any conflicts in the "everybody runs the same" game?


Also, I think it's kind of funny to read down this thread and find a banner at the bottom for a company that sells / rents Spec Miatas.

 

Ooh! I've been photochopped!

K

 

Some random thoughts:

- If this is intended to be a "low-buck get your foot in the RR door" class then I would shy away from the 88-91 CRXs. They are fast and handle extremely well but they can be a handful (as Adam can tell you). I think if you are looking to set up an entry-level spec class then a longer wheelbase platform may be the better way to go.

- Suspension should be controlled by specific shocks but leave springs open since they are cheap and there is no high-dollar top-secret spring technology that one may be able to exploit while using a Koni/GC combo. Swaybars I could go either way on. I would lean towards finding a happy medium between understeer and oversteer and spec those bars. Let the rest of the handling changes be done via the springs. Once you have the specs then find a vendor to give a package deal like the SM guys have. The shocks (whichever brand used) should be off the shelf pieces with no revalving or shortening. Coilover sleeves should be spec as well.

- Chassis should be any of the EG platforms. All will have a minimum weight set at the heaviest of the 3 variants so that the lighter cars have no advantage. I don't think the wheelbase difference is enough to give the hatch a major advantage over the coupe and sedan but if so then maybe hit it with more weight or something. Keep in mind also that hatches are becoming harder to get at reasonable prices so building a class around them will be shooting yourself in the foot. The idea of a spec class is to keep everything equal. Chassis mods would be the standard IT deal. Gutting permitted but no cutting/removal of metal OTHER than to facilitate the NASCAR door bars. All glass must remain in the car and remain GLASS other than the drivers window which can only be removed to install the NASCAR door bars.

- Engines should be restricted to the SOHC D-Series motors. They are cheap as hell and since so many people are ditching them for the DOHC motors they are everywhere. Allow the following:

Headers
Supplimental Ignition (ie: MSDs) since the Tec **** is crap
Adjustable FPRs
Unrestricted caps/rotors/wires/plugs
Unrestricted exhaust
CAI

I would also say to look around for a widely available drop-in cam that is inexpensive to bump the power a little bit. Everything else needs to remain stock.

- Drivetrain should remain all stock except for short shifters. Spec out a final drive if necessary so there is none of this "I found an obscure tranny . . . " bullshit or you could leave FD open and not worry about the obscure finds.

- Wheels/Tires should be 14x7 and I personally think that the Proxes RA-1 should be made the spec tire. It isn't inconceivable to think that these tires could last most of a season and this is a budget-minded class right?

- Body mods will be minimal. I personally don't see these cars being fast enough to need wings of any kind so none will be allowed other than stock. Stock wings can however be removed to save a little weight. Front splitters can be used. No carbon fiber panels anywhere. No body kitZ and all body panels must retain their original shape.

- Cages should follow standard issue IT rules. Racing seats are allowed. Different steering wheels are allowed provided they stay within 2" of stock diameter.

- Brake mods should be limited to SS lines and pads in the stock configuration. Hi temp fluid is ok. Cars with ABS should have the ABS disabled or removed.

The rules are very similar to IT except they address the 2 areas where the most money can be spent in IT - suspension and engine. There is no incentive for high-dollar race motors because all you can do is a stock rebuild with no trick machine work. Hell - spec an entire motor combo if necessary. Make the required motor the 1.6L multiport D-Series and that way everyone should have identical pistons/rods/blocks/heads/intakes/ECMs. Makes policing the field much easier.

I think spec classes can be fun and I like seeing them develop.

 

Sign me up! (I just want a reason to have "sEX" on the Civic.)

(edit to keep it clean!)

 

I like it alot!

The only couple of things I would change is the window glass issue by allowing its removal. And not sure about allowing open springs. The concept is good but seems much easier for drivers to play with adjustable swaybars over springs.