i have a couple questions regarding legalities of hybrids; any help or clarification would be great. i'm both a ECHC and NASA newbie.
-no minimum weight limit regarding hybrids? is this correct?
-what exactly is illegally 'overprepared'? i doubt i run this risk, but just out of curiosity .. .
-non-OEM throttle bodies and intake manifolds are NOT free, i.e., i cant run a skunk2 manifold. however, they dont specify exactly as to the illegality of running a euro-r manifold- which is a honda part. BUT then they say alteration of the air passages is illegal. obviously a change to a single-runner IM alters the air passages. is this what the wording means? or do they mean physical, dremel-attacked style alterations to the original piece? likewise, a larger, stock honda throttle body would not be allowed?
-ECHC rules dont go into depth on rolla bars/cages. can i assume (i hate that word) that 4 point- 6- or 8 are legal? just follow the NASA ccr, right?
thanks. .. . i really wouldnt want to spend precious dollars on something i can't use. gracias!

ps- i heard from a little birdy that NASA intends to return to florida in 2004. . . maybe ECHC will have some events at sebring next year?

 

2003 East Coast rules:

http://honda-challenge.com/drivers/forms/rules.pdf

2003 West Coast & Mid-West rules:

http://www.hondachallenge.com/...s.pdf


2004 rules are apparently still a work-in-progress.

 

For the East, all your HC questions can be answered by sending mail to info@honda-challenge.com.

Below is my understanding of the rules to answer your questions. Official answers will come from the above e-mail. Also keep in mind that ECHC will run national rules next year. The 2004 rules are under revision and will be out before the season starts. There are some good topics in the HC forum about this. (Link is in the driver's section on the ECHC page).

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">-no minimum weight limit regarding hybrids? is this correct?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Currently this is correct. For 2004 there will most likely be a min weight for hybrids. The HC forums threads have some discussion about this.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">-what exactly is illegally 'overprepared'? i doubt i run this risk, but just out of curiosity .. . </TD></TR></TABLE>

There is a section about cars log booked from other series that may be overprepped, but are legal to run. Grand-Am cup cars, and SCCA Production cars for example. This rule does not apply to to newly built cars. If a car is moddified beyond the rules, and does not fall into the above, it is illegal for HC.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">-non-OEM throttle bodies and intake manifolds are NOT free, i.e., i cant run a skunk2 manifold. however, they dont specify exactly as to the illegality of running a euro-r manifold- which is a honda part. BUT then they say alteration of the air passages is illegal. obviously a change to a single-runner IM alters the air passages. is this what the wording means? or do they mean physical, dremel-attacked style alterations to the original piece? likewise, a larger, stock honda throttle body would not be allowed?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Re-read the definition of the hybrid. Any Honda OEM part is legal. You can alter parts or use aftermarket ones only when specifically allowed.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">-ECHC rules dont go into depth on rolla bars/cages. can i assume (i hate that word) that 4 point- 6- or 8 are legal? just follow the NASA ccr, right?</TD></TR></TABLE>

The FAQ answers this one. the HC rules are an addendum to the NASA CCR. You will need these rules as well. Link on the website.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ps- i heard from a little birdy that NASA intends to return to florida in 2004. . . maybe ECHC will have some events at sebring next year? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't know about this. But now that HC is a national NASA series, any region can have HC classes and a series.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sloaccord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
-no minimum weight limit regarding hybrids? is this correct?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Correct for 2003. 2004 might have a minimum.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">-what exactly is illegally 'overprepared'? i doubt i run this risk, but just out of curiosity .. . </TD></TR></TABLE>

In the non-hybrid classes, vehicles that are overprepared (Grand Am cars, for example) may bump up one class. A Grand Am GSR would bump from H3 to H2 because it has suspension that is beyong the HC rules. Since hybrids are in H1, there is no place to bump - the rule is kinda redundant.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">-non-OEM throttle bodies and intake manifolds are NOT free, i.e., i cant run a skunk2 manifold. however, they dont specify exactly as to the illegality of running a euro-r manifold- which is a honda part.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nowhere does it allow non-OEM TB or intake manifold. See 16.3.e.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BUT then they say alteration of the air passages is illegal. obviously a change to a single-runner IM alters the air passages. is this what the wording means? or do they mean physical, dremel-attacked style alterations to the original piece? likewise, a larger, stock honda throttle body would not be allowed?</TD></TR></TABLE>

16.3.f
If changing to the OEM single runner requires alteration of air/oil/water passages in the head, then you are SOL. A larger TB is legal if it bolts up, but you can't port match it, so probably no point in doing so.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">-ECHC rules dont go into depth on rolla bars/cages. can i assume (i hate that word) that 4 point- 6- or 8 are legal? just follow the NASA ccr, right?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Follow the NASA CCR for cages. 4 point is not sufficient - you need a 6 point or greater. Also, I'd wait until the 2004 rules are released as they may (or may not) be allowing &gt;8 point cages (ie thru the firewall) - which is currently verboten, at least in ECHC.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Jerry, I think he's read the rules. He's having trouble understanding parts of them.</TD></TR></TABLE>

George. I'm trying not to get in the position of interpreting the rules, and incurring the wrath of .RJ for doing so. Everything he needs to know is in the rules. If he still has questions, he needs to contact Karl. Contact info is also on the ECHC site.

From the East Coast Rules:

3.1.3 Vehicle Minimum Weights
H1
NSX: 2950 lbs
S2000: 2800 lbs
Hybrids (see section 3.9): <u>No minimum weights</u>


2.0.2 Vehicle Safety
<u>Vehicle safety requirements are governed by NASA through the Club Codes and</u> Regulations. The CCR is available through NASA National, and contact information is provided in section 2.0.1 of this document.


A Hybrid will be defined as any Honda vehicle built with components that are sourced from a stock Honda vehicle of <u>a different model, domestic market or generation.</u>
- Throttle Bodies and Intake Manifolds are not considered part of the cylinder
head and must be Honda parts
- Items (such as throttle bodies and intake manifolds) that attach to the cylinder head <u>may be re-drilled for fitiment purposes ONLY</u>. Alteration of air, fuel, and/or coolant passages is not permitted. Fitiment modifications that alter air, fuel, and/or coolant passages as a side effect will be deemed illegal.

We must also remember that the 2004 rules may differ.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">In the non-hybrid classes, vehicles that are overprepared (Grand Am cars, for example) may bump up one class. A Grand Am GSR would bump from H3 to H2 because it has suspension that is beyong the HC rules. Since hybrids are in H1, there is no place to bump - the rule is kinda redundant.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I really wish we would have not used the word "bump" in the original rule book. It gives people the wrong idea. HC does not allow cars to be bumped up, overprepped etc. Every car has a class to run in, everything else is not legal.

Some cars from other series which may be prepared beyond the HC rules, or not as prepared, are also classed, but may run in classes above or below where they would normally.

Currently listed series are Grand-Am, SCCA Production, and SCCA Showroom stock. There cars must be log booked from those series. One cannot just show up with a car that looks kind of like a car from those series and expect to qualify for these classes.

 

See within; I'm too lazy to break up the quote block.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sloaccord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i have a couple questions regarding legalities of hybrids; any help or clarification would be great. i'm both a ECHC and NASA newbie.
-no minimum weight limit regarding hybrids? is this correct?

East Coast has no H1 minimum weight this year. All regions running the "National Rules" will likely move to a minimum weight. Questions regarding this should be directed to NASA National.

-what exactly is illegally 'overprepared'? i doubt i run this risk, but just out of curiosity .. .

That question can be answered a number of ways. It could mean...
- you have a car that is not legal
- you have a car that is prepared for another type of racing and as a result is outside the bounds of current HC rules.

The "Bumping" described in the rules is NOT intended for people to buy some thing they wanted for an otherwise legal car and bump up a class. It is for LEGAL, LOGBOOKED cars from series like SCCA Production, Showroom stock, or Grand Am Cup racing.

-non-OEM throttle bodies and intake manifolds are NOT free, i.e., i cant run a skunk2 manifold. however, they dont specify exactly as to the illegality of running a euro-r manifold- which is a honda part. BUT then they say alteration of the air passages is illegal. obviously a change to a single-runner IM alters the air passages. is this what the wording means? or do they mean physical, dremel-attacked style alterations to the original piece? likewise, a larger, stock honda throttle body would not be allowed?

You're overcomplicating things. If the parts are made by Honda (and I'm pretty sure we spell out that you can use a piece from any "domestic market") then it's fine.

-ECHC rules dont go into depth on rolla bars/cages. can i assume (i hate that word) that 4 point- 6- or 8 are legal? just follow the NASA ccr, right?
thanks. .. . i really wouldnt want to spend precious dollars on something i can't use. gracias!

For next year and for the current National rules, follow the CCR. In addition, attachment points will be unlimited next year; this year they are restricted to 8 and you can't pass through the firewall.

ps- i heard from a little birdy that NASA intends to return to florida in 2004. . . maybe ECHC will have some events at sebring next year?

I have no idea. That's a question for NASA national.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

In the future please direct rules questions to the appropriate sanctioning body - honda-tech.com is not an official clearinghouse for rules questions.