Well I've had a set of toda spec b's for a while now..... I enjoyed them in my first itr. After that, I bought a set of spec c's, and never swapped them out.

I recently made the purchase of a set of spec a's now too..... (Thanks kengs!)

So I have spec a's, spec b's, and spec c's. AND I have two itr powered cars - one itr and one itr powered hatchback. Both are stock motors internally - except for the toda valve springs, toda cam gears, and portflow retainers. I also have a hytech header, hondata s200 (p28) and am considering ordering a mugen intake.....

Well, I've also been going back and forth with sgT and this thread is the result:

I am going to drop off either my itr or itr-powered hatchback with steve in VA. I am going to ask him to tune each of the sets of cams in that car to the best of his abilities... Hopefully, this will settle once and for all which cam setup is best in a stock itr motor. I believe he is also interested in testing against jun 3's, and possibly an sms header. I have known steve for a while, and I believe he will be an objective tuner - which I feel is unlike the other camshaft tests that have previously been done.....

I don't know when this test will happen. Hopefully within a month or two...

But here is where you - the honda-tech members come in:

I am donating the itr motor, the 3 sets of cams, the hytech header, the hondata, and my personal time to deliver the car and pick it up. Steve is donating his time as a tuner for the 8-10 hours of tuning that will need to be done to complete an OBJECTIVE test. He may decide to do an intake test or header test, or even jun 3 comparo as well (time permitting).

I am now wondering how to finance the dyno time - as that is final thing that doesn't come cheap. I am considering setting up a paypal account and asking others to donate $20 each to help pay for the dyno time. But I wonder how long it will take if relatively few people donate $..... things like this rarely turn out. And frankly, I'm tired of trying what others say they'd like to do but never seem to follow through with.

I am now considering a new strategy: Steve will keep the best maps for each of the cams he tests. The $20 donation will enable each person who donates to this test access to these hondata maps - and the dynojet runs for personal comparison.

The results will be published here on honda-tech.

What do you guys think? I'm burning through $ like crazy lately what with my hybrid project, and my turbo itr plans..... but I'd like to conduct this test before I sell these cams.....

Any takers?

Thoughts?

 

Anything to help advance our community.

I'm in, just let me know where to send the money. And I don't think you could've picked a better person for the tuning. Steve

 

I think this is retarded. shrug.

D

 

Would you be upgrading the pistons and injectors when you're testing the spec C's?

if your engines are stock, it's better you stick to the milder cams. C's need the high compression pistons and injectors to make real power.

 

I'm with D on this one. Those cams are all different and as such need different internals and compression to maximize power. Wouldn't a hondata map for spec C's tuned for stock compression and rev limit be completely useless?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dr Pooface &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm with D on this one. Those cams are all different and as such need different internals and compression to maximize power. Wouldn't a hondata map for spec C's tuned for stock compression and rev limit be completely useless?</TD></TR></TABLE>


[....]

I don't want to get into a big tirade on why big cams don't make power on relatively stock motors - I have seen and tuned otherwise. Even with stock injectors, stock fpr, stock motor and only a vafc and cam gears to tune with.

I can remember skeptics a couple years back telling me a 4.9 final drive was too extreme for the "street." LOL And that spec B's were too crazy for a stock motor...

 

[....]

Ken, good luck with your test. I might even think about sending $20 for it.

I was trying to ask a question, and one that I think is fair. Wouldn't a hondata map for spec C's tuned for stock compression and rev limit be completely useless? I'd think the vast majority of people who go with heavy cams have the internals and compression to back them up.

Dylan, who loves to learn and ask questions, and thinks Black R might just have a bit too much money. (please Ken, no offence)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by len &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Anything to help advance our community.

I'm in, just let me know where to send the money. And I don't think you could've picked a better person for the tuning. Steve </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm with Len. Anything to help H-T if I can.

 

Personally I'd love to look at the numbers but the money to do all of this just doesn't seem worth it.

If someone has a dyno that's not being used...by all means, I'd love to see the numbers.

 

[....]

Pooface, the stock redline will not exist. The rev limiter can be set as high as 10k+ if needed..... no need to rev that high if the power isn't made there, but it's possible with the valvetrain (reread my original post)... As for whether they make power - yes. How much more than stock cams? At least 13whp peak, and more midrange. Of that I can guarantee you. If that's worth it to anyone... remains to be seen. For the $ it's not the cheapest route, but there's a lot of trouble to buy spec a's, then ctr pistons, then sell spec a's, the install spec c's, and retune each time, etc, etc..... (This is actually a very common route for allmotor buildups... just ask steve. )

 

good luck KenE

you're welcome to try my intake if you and Steve have time

 

Always up for a camshaft test. Could not think of a better guy to do the tuning and testing. Throw in some Skunks and EF-1's while your at it

 

test some GSR cams, or B16A cams too, I think you will not loose that much hp.

Yeah, make the test, but with 12:1 cr please.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by austrian type-R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah, make the test, but with 12:1 cr please.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Are you willing to pay for the pistons+install?

 

no

Mill the head. That going to be 600usd at an shop. I bet we get 60 people who can pay 10usd each. And the Test ITR will be stronger with stock cams too.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by austrian type-R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Mill the head. That going to be 600usd at an shop. I bet we get 60 people who can pay 10usd each. And the Test ITR will be stronger with stock cams too.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

You mean do it improperly? Have you considered valve clearance with big-lift cams?

 

On a serious note, it may be better to determine how much funding is needed, what steve will need to do it, ect. I don't think it's a bad idea, however it may not be as relative using different cams on a single motor; unless other changes are made to compliment the cam outputs..(IMO) Having access to the hondata maps would be worth the $20 to me, if steve tunes them.

 

This isn't possible to do 100% correct without gigantic amounts of work, time, money, etc.

I'm not for or against it, but the negative comments are just as helpful as the positive comments.

But think realistically - in order to get the most out of the cams in question... are you willing to do ALL the work necessary to get the 'ideal' setup so a good comparison can actually be done?

 

How about a mix-and-match too, like Toda B intake and Toda A exhaust...stuff like that.

I don't have Paypal, but I would be interested in sending a MO to help.

 

I would be interested in volunteering my time.

How fast you think we can get camshaft swaps done? 10 minutes?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah, you still have the <u>other</u> hand to rip up. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I've done much dumber things with my busted hand, dont worry.

 

I think Payn Technologies is finishing up a camshaft comparison today... I think it's going to be published.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am interested enough in this project to help Steve with the dyno time.

I'd personally like to see the difference between something like the Toda "A" and "B" when both are tuned by an expert like Sakai.

I don't see much point in testing the "C" in a basically stock motor, but I guess it'll be interesting.</TD></TR></TABLE>

A and B would be good, but B's like higher compression. So on a basically stock motor, what's the comparison?

 

Sounds like a good idea but ...... if no header or intake testing is done, the maps would be useless for folks without a Hytech header and Mugen intake.

The maps would be customized for your header and intake.

Regardless ..... I'd be interested in the results.

-Nick

 

Ken - not a bad idea.... however IMHO comparison tests often yeild little objective data considering the test environment. If anything these types of endevours end up with a bunch of people defending their favorites based on different variables that "could", "might", "should have" influenced the results.

My bet is that all three cams end up within 10whp peak of each other. I would be interested in seeing the complete curve just for grins.

$20? I think I'll buy my next two autocrosses instead - no offense.

Ausmith - who needs to go to the dyno.