Just wondering if anyone has any experience with methanol on a honda race engine.

Would like to know see feedback.

 

yeah.. it works.. 10-15% in HP....its not as bad to maintain as everyone thinks ... i have a couple of dyno charts with gas Vs Meth... ill post it up..

 

I would appreciate it if you posted those charts. I would like to run Meth but I have no experience with it and I'm not sure how to approach the initial fuel mapping.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FTR11secALLMOTOR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yeah.. it works.. 10-15% in HP....its not as bad to maintain as everyone thinks ... i have a couple of dyno charts with gas Vs Meth... ill post it up..</TD></TR></TABLE>

dyno charts??

 

I am running my race car off methanol. Its alot cheaper than C16. You just need twice as much methanol as gas

 

When tuning methanol on a wide band, what air/fuel ratio do you shoot for?
If Methanol requires twice as much fuel as gas, wouldn't it require a a/f ratio in the 6.5:1 range?

http://www.autronic.com/analyzer.html
I was reading over on autronics site and they state that "Uses a Bosch four wire wide band sensor and has a air fuel ratio range of 10:1 to 36:1"
So how could you get a sensor to read the air/fuel ratio of methanol?

 

my 1.4L sohc using it, i dont know exactly about my methanol AFR ,but it produceed the best power when i multiply 1.56 on my main jet size (we run dcoe weber carbs)
I.E my main jet size when running benzole (aviation gasoline) was 145, then i used 225 main jet size with methanol

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FTR11secALLMOTOR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yeah.. it works.. 10-15% in HP....its not as bad to maintain as everyone thinks ... i have a couple of dyno charts with gas Vs Meth... ill post it up..</TD></TR></TABLE>

dyno chart?

would there be any advantage to switch to alcohol if the cr is only 13.5:1 ? also i noiticed when at the dyno the air fuel meter would not go below 10.0, what af meter do you use to tune alcohol if the target is in the single digit area?


Modified by shant at 1:40 AM 10/29/2003

 

i heard from some people that when you tune methanol you don't use a/f to tune, but rather just EGT's..once you have maximum hp you just run the a/f wherever it is at..as long as it makes most power, and doesn't detonate, and makes most power, who cares what the a/f ratio is at.

I could be wrong though, i just heard this from some guy that runs a turbo buick on methanol..

 

some problems ive seen with this post. methonal give a mid range boost in power but not so much on the top or peak power. instead of making 200 hp at 7k on gas youll get around 220-230 with meth.

you cant really run as high a comp ratio with meth as you can with gas.

on most of the all motor race cars out there, its about what the other guy said like a 1.5-1.75 more needed.

everyone has a different way of tuning with it as well as everyone runs a differnt management and use different o2 sensors so theres no 1 right answer for how to tune.
HTH

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by L-B racing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you cant really run as high a comp ratio with meth as you can with gas.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

is this right?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by shant &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

is this right?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I found this

"WHEN we were first considering changing over to Methanol it was stated a small power gain would be obtained right away with just the change of fuel, but to obtain the full benefit the engine would have to be modified to do so.

Going back to our simple heat engine again as a basis, we can say by the use of Methanol we are getting twice the weight of fuel to ignite, at the same time we can increase the compression ratio to a much higher figure thus producing much greater power or force on the piston, and so in fact obtaining a more efficient engine."

 

u dont use an EGT or a wide band to tune Meth, u tune it by the smell of the exhaust....hahahaa best way is to route the exhaust straight into the cabin

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dnrprojectsvp &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">u dont use an EGT or a wide band to tune Meth, u tune it by the smell of the exhaust....hahahaa best way is to route the exhaust straight into the cabin </TD></TR></TABLE>

you are stupid

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by shant &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you are stupid</TD></TR></TABLE>
too funny shant!

 

ok everyone.

1. You need a min. of 12:1 to run Meth. Recommend 15:1 or higher. i am running 17:1 on mine.
2. When switching to Meth. you need to go between 40-60% more fuel. which is basically doubling the amount.
3. Meth. likes a lot of timing. We are running at 28 deg. advan.
4. Cooling system. What do you need that for? You can get rid of it. Weight Savings.
5. As for what gauges you need. Oil Temp. and Oil Press.
6. EGT's you need 4 of them to tune the car. If you want.
5. Basic rule for Meth. Run RICH. Meth. only uses what it needs the rest cools the engine thus no cooling system. So if you eyes are burning you should be ok.
6. Spark plugs. We are still having issues with that one. And don't expect your plugs to tell you anything. Mine always come out looking brand new.
7. Another issue with Meth. Getting the car Hot. You need to get the car to peak operating temp. Because by the time youÂ’re at the end of the track your car is cold. and you may lose up to 10hp.
8. Meth. does not require as much air as gas would need.
9. Oil. make sure you run a catch can off the crank case. Meth. produces moistures. And you will most likely have to change the oil after each event. Also check your oil level after each run. Due to the fact that your running rich it will affect your oil levels. The rest will come out the catch can.


This is what i have learned over the past several months since we started building mine. And yes mine does run. Just needs some fine tuning and a new head gasket.

here is a great site that i have found http://www.turbofast.com.au


Modified by allmotor7642 at 12:54 PM 10/30/2003

 

a friend of mine ran methanol on his race car...it was turbo though..he had a bone stock gsr motor wit a t4 no intercooler cuz it wasnt needed cuz the methanol runs really cool and he ran it on a haltech at 15psi and the car went 10.89@129mph...so i thought that was pretty impressive

 

bump for interest-

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by shant &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you are stupid</TD></TR></TABLE>

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by allmotor7642 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
1. You need a min. of 12:1 to run Meth. Recommend 15:1 or higher. i am running 17:1 on mine.
2. When switching to Meth. you need to go between 40-60% more fuel. which is basically doubling the amount.
3. Meth. likes a lot of timing. We are running at 28 deg. advan.
4. Cooling system. What do you need that for? You can get rid of it. Weight Savings.
5. As for what gauges you need. Oil Temp. and Oil Press.
6. EGT's you need 4 of them to tune the car. If you want.
5. Basic rule for Meth. Run RICH. Meth. only uses what it needs the rest cools the engine thus no cooling system. So if you eyes are burning you should be ok.
6. Spark plugs. We are still having issues with that one. And don't expect your plugs to tell you anything. Mine always come out looking brand new.
7. Another issue with Meth. Getting the car Hot. You need to get the car to peak operating temp. Because by the time you’re at the end of the track your car is cold. and you may lose up to 10hp.
8. Meth. does not require as much air as gas would need.
9. Oil. make sure you run a catch can off the crank case. Meth. produces moistures. And you will most likely have to change the oil after each event. Also check your oil level after each run. Due to the fact that your running rich it will affect your oil levels. The rest will come out the catch can.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks Scott this is great info.

got a question or 2. what temp do you target for the egt when tuning and how far from the exhaust port do you place the egt meter?

what heat range spark plugs are you using?

gas ported pistons, are they even better with alcohol motors because of the lower temps. the rings would seal better even though the temp is not at ideal range because of the gas ported pistons?

if my motor is tuned on race gas and i want to switch to alcohol is it safe to asume that all i need is 40-60% larger injectors and i could use the same fuel map. just add timing?

is the stock honda ignition system ok for all motor alcohol aplications? i have a feeling that it might be ok if the proper spark plugs are used (heat range and gap?)

 

The motec a/f meter will read down really low, not sure how low i have seen it at 4.5 and you dont need to get any lower than that with n/a

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by shant &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Thanks Scott this is great info.

got a question or 2. what temp do you target for the egt when tuning and how far from the exhaust port do you place the egt meter?

what heat range spark plugs are you using?

gas ported pistons, are they even better with alcohol motors because of the lower temps. the rings would seal better even though the temp is not at ideal range because of the gas ported pistons?

if my motor is tuned on race gas and i want to switch to alcohol is it safe to asume that all i need is 40-60% larger injectors and i could use the same fuel map. just add timing?

is the stock honda ignition system ok for all motor alcohol aplications? i have a feeling that it might be ok if the proper spark plugs are used (heat range and gap?) </TD></TR></TABLE>
i talked to gary gardella and he said that he uses ngk 10's with his meth setup...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kwik93si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
i talked to gary gardella and he said that he uses ngk 10's with his meth setup...</TD></TR></TABLE>

im a bit confused, is this correct? when going high compression on gas motor the chance of pre ignition is greater because of the heat in the combustion caused by higher compression ratio. the reason colder plugs are used is to lower combustion tempetures. correct?

10 is a cold plug, with alcohol wouldent you want to have hotter plug? since the combustion is cold. i would think like a 5 range or something.

i know this might be totaly wrong but im not sure?

 

A colder plug will have the electrode and ground strap placed further into the spark plug, this allows for the plug to be able to become less effected by the heat generated in the combustion chamber.

A hotter plug will have more surface area exposed, and allows for more deposits on the sparkplug to be burnt off. Typically the heat ranges of the plug are dictated by the cylinder pressure, which is in direct correlation to the cylinder temperature. The heat ranges of the spark plug have nothing to do with phsycially lowering or raising the temperature inside of the combustion chamber. Since methanol runs so much colder in the combustion chamber than gasoline, I would imagine you could run much higher heat range plugs unless methanol deposits alot of byproducts on the plug surface which would require the colder plug to shield the electrode area.

 

Shant, I wouldn't assume just going bigger injectors.

Your fuel system most likely will have to change. Meth. likes to eat things. All you fuel lines must be Meth. safe. Also all fittings must either be Stainless or Anodized. Fuel pump must be Meth. safe. And will need to pump twice as much fuel. Stainless steel fuel cell.
As for ignition if you have a way of getting a lot of timing then great.
Spark plugs are still an issue I am having. Some say go hotter some say go colder. Meth. does not have a problem with pre-ignition.
As for the egt's I don't know because we are not using egt's

Also forgot to mention Top Lube. You mix the Top Lube with your Meth. The Top Lube keeps the valve train lubed.