8/10ths or 9/10ths only. Always save room for hairy situations.

http://www.s2ki.com/forums/sho...89571

Warren

 

yeah, what he said...

 

If there's one thing I've learned in my adventures in autocrossing and track driving, it's that once the car gets really out of shape you should just put both feet in and come to as controlled a stop as possible then get your bearings. No one will applaud you if you make a miraculous save, and you're more likely to be sitting there crying next to your street car you just toasted.

This is a perfect example of just knowing when to know you're in over your head and throw in the towel(both feet in). Re-entering the track at a high rate of speed can be bad, very bad.


I feel bad for the guy though...

 

I was two cars behind that guy at Gingerman on 4/19 when that happened. Scary indeed.

I didn't see it all, but he was really overdriving, to the point of some pretty serious oversteer. He had a 4 point harness, no rollover protection, and LUCKILY no passenger. If he had a passenger, I'm not sure that they would have made it. He had to have tried to save it, gingerman is very safe, I have gone off several times with no problem. When I get in a hairy situation where I may go 2 wheels off or more, it's both feet in and drive straight off. I dont' see any shame in that, it's not a race. But... lots of people come to lapping events there and have that mentality.

There's nothing more comforting than run off room in conjunction with the mindset that this is NOT a race, but somewhere to learn.

 

Every racer I know who has any sense at all says "it's not a question of IF it's a question of WHEN" the big off will happen. That is why I have decided to forego HPDEs until I have a cage. Others may have other views and they are entitled to them.

I know that I try to drive within my limits. It's that sometimes I make mistakes. Mainly, it's the unexpected that I worry about. But I have seen the red mist and it scared the crap outta me.

Regards,
Alan

 

God forbid I EVER have to test the roll over protection of a street car, (or a race car for that matter) but I have seen so many damned pancaked BMW's I am really curious about why the hell all the extra poundage of "German Engineering" isn't better at protecting the passenger cabin...

 

useful reminder in my young racing life.

 

Well if I needed any more reasons not to track my car in this current stage of my life...

I've promised myself that I will not venture out onto a track in the only car that I own. Even though the odds are low that I'd be involved in a shunt (that word always makes it seem less expensive for some reason ), I know that I could not recover from losing my only car; the car that makes me money.

Until the day comes when I can afford to go open-tracking, I'll just live vicariously through this board.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00R101 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That is why I have decided to forego HPDEs until I have a cage. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I wish everyone had that view. This is the reason why I won't ride in a car without a roll bar/cage.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by madhatter &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why the hell all the extra poundage of "German Engineering" isn't better at protecting the passenger cabin...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Of all the accidents I've seen in street cars, the only death was in a Mustang. I've seen several pancaked BMWs first-hand and the driver (and passenger, when present) walked away.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by madhatter &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">GodI have seen so many damned pancaked BMW's I am really curious about why the hell all the extra poundage of "German Engineering" isn't better at protecting the passenger cabin...</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's not just BMWs. It's the design of the cars now a days. They are designed for frontal, offset and side impacts. If the car manufacturers had to build cars for high speed roll over protection all the Cd values would be much higher. Low windshield rake angles don't make for strong rollover protection.


Modified by SMSP at 2:04 PM 7/1/2003

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by madhatter &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">God forbid I EVER have to test the roll over protection of a street car, (or a race car for that matter) but I have seen so many damned pancaked BMW's I am really curious about why the hell all the extra poundage of "German Engineering" isn't better at protecting the passenger cabin...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Anyone remember those pics of the rolled M3 from Summit or VIR? The top was smooshed down to the level of the rest of the car Driver and passenger (?) did live though. I see that one brought up as ammunition in the "harness with no bar" wars. This particular driver was very lucky.

Re: Gingerman - Gman remains the only track event I have spectated/worked at where I did not see sheet-metal damage of some form.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Of all the accidents I've seen in street cars, the only death was in a Mustang. I've seen several pancaked BMWs first-hand and the driver (and passenger, when present) walked away.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ford really doesn't tout Autobahn capabilities. I remember seeing a factory film from either Audi or Mercedes or BMW (can't remember which right now, but the images will never leave my mind) of what scenarios they plan when they build a car in Germany. They showed a BMW(?) flipping something along the lines of 12 times @ roughly 100mph. The voice over was all over themselves touting the solid, safe structure. Certainly held up better than the one in those photos at any rate.&lt;shrugs&gt;

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zyg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have no sympathy for that guy, and all the other B'mer drivers that ***** up on track due to over-driving and thinking they have bigger ***** than Senna. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks for your quality opinion.

 

Ouch It's amazing he was able to open his door...

This is exactly why I haven't been on the track in a while. IF something were to happen, I would not have the means to cover it...or to get to work to make money to cover it.

In my eyes, even HPDE's require a 2nd car.

 

I think that car was traveling backwards and sideways when he hooked the left side wheels (on or near the track surface?) and went over. Take a lok at the dust and the background...

Call it a high speed case of bad luck?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zyg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have no sympathy for that guy, and all the other B'mer drivers that ***** up on track due to over-driving and thinking they have bigger ***** than Senna. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I recall someone doing the same at Expo and ignoring the advice of others.

Warren

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zyg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Hmm ... "learning".
I guess I shouldn't remind you of Gina's earlier comments wrt to my "driving style".
I was learning on the PA and Ohio turnpikes!
First you don't want me to "scare the kiddies", then you want me to go weaving (referring to NASA events and placement in the appropriate level) through the pack like I did on the way home from the expo (and past/passed 12-15 mostly white ITR's in my humble Rex).

Make up your mind(s) guys.
In which case, and if you really want tme to "learn" then don't make me wait for any passing signals, since I have already Mastered that "driving style on public roads!

Seriously, I'm disappointed the the two of you (George and RJ).
Yes really!!

Whatever. </TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zyg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The beauty of abundant power is that there's no need to try and carry speed through turns, simply goose it and pass on the straights.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I recall you stating that you should be in a higher group at NASA events in the new version of your R because its much higher potential and speed, and because you have mastered the art of weaving through normal speed traffic on the highways. That's a paraphrase, and I decided to quote anyways.

With that fresh in all our minds, how can you say what you just said in this thread?? I can't believe what I saw when I reopened this thread.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zyg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have no sympathy for that guy, and all the other B'mer drivers that ***** up on track due to over-driving and thinking they have bigger ***** than Senna. </TD></TR></TABLE>

What Warren just said, I agree with. I was there for that also, on the track as a passenger.

Just because your car is faster doesn't give you any right to go to a higher group when you haven't even mastered the line. You can cause SERIOUS problems for higher level drivers when you are all over the course 'goosing' the turns and blasting down the straightaways. How you can pretend to think this is ok, I have no idea.

VERY irresponsible of you to post those things, think your logic isn't flawed, then turn around and bash someone who flipped their car (yes it was his fault) and say you have no respect for someone who overdrives and pretends to have ***** of steel.

Sounds like you just described yourself. You must not have any respect for yourself.

Edit - I have no personal beef with you, until I saw these recent posts. You ought to think before you write/speak.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DSC240sx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ouch It's amazing he was able to open his door...

This is exactly why I haven't been on the track in a while. IF something were to happen, I would not have the means to cover it...or to get to work to make money to cover it.

In my eyes, even HPDE's require a 2nd car.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree. I had a moment of weakness and signed up for my 2nd one that's coming up the weekend after this one.

Simply put, driving at a high rate of speed, that much closer to the limits is one which puts you closer to the limits. Therefore, anything can happen, and stuff can take a turn for the worse in an instant.

Some BMW drivers do push it a bit harder than they should at an HPDE IMO - but most are quite conservative compared to the drivers of most other marques I have seen out on the track.


I can't wait to get out of school and get a decent job and pick me up a car that I will HPDE then eventually race after I don't suck as badly out there. Might sell the M3 to afford a daily driver + cheap track toy, but that's in the future. Gotta concentrate on not getting in a bad situation out there for now...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00R101 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Every racer I know who has any sense at all says "it's not a question of IF it's a question of WHEN" the big off will happen. That is why I have decided to forego HPDEs until I have a cage. Others may have other views and they are entitled to them.

I know that I try to drive within my limits. It's that sometimes I make mistakes. Mainly, it's the unexpected that I worry about. But I have seen the red mist and it scared the crap outta me.

Regards,
Alan</TD></TR></TABLE>

The ironic thing about learning high performance driving techniques is that the more you advance the less room for error. Threshold braking, trailbraking, rotation, apexing earlier, ect. all techniques you are trying to master and mistakes are bound to happen.

 

Here are some thoughts about the things i have read in this thread:

I dont feel a driver should be intimidated by the thoughts of crashing or damaging their vehicle during these events. There is no reason why someone shouldnt try an event like these if they dont have rollover protection or a cage. I feel like crashes occur when someone makes poor judgement or drives outside of their skill level. As long as drivers leaves their ego at home, and drive according to the rules/what the instructors says, everyone should be able to drive home from these events.

Now, if someone decides that they enjoy track days(who doesnt?) and wants to keep at it, then rollover protection and safety equipment is a must.

Its too bad that things like this happen, but this is what happens when people want to go faster, or drive their car at 10/10. Some go faster, and others run out of talent.

I just hope that people who want to drive track days dont get discouraged by incidents like this.


Mike

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zyg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The big difference is that ... I stayed upright, and on the pavement! </TD></TR></TABLE>

I can't even respond to this. wth??

That's not right, and doesn't excuse you from what you already said on the subject.

A walking time bomb is not somehow 'better' because it has not gone off yet. They are the same thing: both played/are playing with fire.

Chris - who can't believe an arrogant response belongs in this discussion, that was going along very well.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zyg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do I recall someone also saying (perhaps Warren himself), that the apex cone (actually exit cone) was in the wrong place in that turn?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

why look at things that move as a reference point in the first place ?