so i was chatting with dave @ skunk2... i mentioned i wanted to get a quaife atb into remix (my 94 civic si, stock d16z6 powered). he says, why not phantom grip. i said, you're kidding right? he says they use it in all of their cars, including some road race ones. my jaws literally dropped. so now i'm having a 2nd look at PG.

has anybody driven a car with PG installed?? in autox or RR? I think PG.com's Honda testimonials very interesting!

"Honda Owner


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The one word I would use to describe the Phantom Grip is 'Smooth'. Power delivery is a lot less harsh than I expected. It's operation is virtually seamless, with none of the 'hunting' for traction that some of the more expensive gear-based LSDs I have driven had. This is particularly important in front wheel drive cars, where you get a lot of steering feedback from drive torque (torque steer). Of course, being smooth isn't the only thing a LSD needs to do - it also needs to be capable of holding the power. I have been running the Phantom Grip on my E Mod turbocharged Civic, and have been impressed with it's ability to maintain traction even under full boost. The installation was straightforward, and the value of the Phantom Grip is unbeatable.
-- Chris Raglin,Dunlop Tire test driver and 10 years of auto crossing

Rivergate Racing is currently racing five CRX/Civics in SCCA's Improved Touring C class. Two of these were bought with the Mugen limited slip (about $1300 each!). We have installed the Phantom Grip limited slip in the other three. I raced one of the cars with the Phantom Grip at Virginia International Raceway . Two weeks later, I raced one of the Mugen equipped cars at Road Atlanta. I was frankly surprised to find that I prefer the action of the Phantom Grip by a significant margin, over the much more expensive Mugen. The difference was in the feel. The Mugen would turn loose if I overdrove and hit a curb exiting a corner. This upset the balance of the car. With the Phantom Grip there was no spinning of the inside tire, yet I was never conscious of the action of the limited slip--the Phantom Grip just works!
--Bill Perry

I bought a phantom grip from you late last month and used it in an autocross this past Sunday at Danville,VA airport with Triad Sports Car Club. I placed first in D-Mod with my 88' CRX. Usually I struggle on this particular course but finished 1.5 seconds ahead of my competition. Thanks to the phantom grip. Just wanted to say thank you.

After the 1999 race season, I installed a Phantom Grip Limited Slip in my ITC Honda CRX. In 2000 I have run nine races, and won all of them but one. My friend Vesa and I were so far in front in that race that we just played around with each other, while talking on the radio. Wins included the Pro IT Series Championship and the SARRC Invitational Championship race. Without question the Phantom Grip has made my Honda faster.
-- Will Perry

I purchased a Phantom Grip for my CRX from you this past winter and it worked out very well. I used it for a 6 hour endurance race and WON!! The second pace car was 7 laps down. I've since turned the car into an oval track (asphalt) racer (stripped it out and added a full roll cage).
--Rob "

 

don't you mean phantom slip?

 

I don't know where that comes from. I think it may be a urban legand...

I've ran my car for the last two seasons with the PG and have had no complaints...

I'm currently in the process of replacing a motor and while I'm at it, I'll be tearing the gear box apart to replace some syncros. Will I find a mangled mess? I don't know, but the car pulls well through the turns without any jerky feel.

I asked a very senior driver up in our area if I should replace the PG with a different unit while I was into my rebuild. He asked if the thing was still working and I replied that it was. His response - keep it.

I may know jack when it comes to the mechanics, but the PG may have an uncalledfor bad rep.

Greg ~ who may be slipping...and not know it.

 

I've got about 4500 miles on mine, no problem yet, but I'm not sure if it's really doing any good. the last time I jacked the car up, I put the tranny in first gear and spun the passenger tire forward. Instead of spinning forward like an lsd-equiped diff, or reverse like an open diff, the driver's tire didn't spin at all.


Modified by thumpu77 at 11:52 PM 6/28/2003

 

I'm considering an LSD and have been searching around for info. Obviously OPM is going to be biased toward their LSD (clutch type too), but in the description of their LSD they write:

"...The Phantom Grip LSD is an incomplete copy of an OPM unit. It has the spring block, but no clutches so it wears out the diff housing."

The only thing I have heard about PG before is that it didn't do much, but I had never heard of it causing this kind of damage.

 

we took apart a trans at dan's that had that pg in it and it messed up the teeth baaaad...

i got pics if you wanna see 'em

Frito

 

Post the Pics It would definitely be worth taking a closer look! So we can start confirming or disconfirming all this debate...

 

Frito, I would be interested in hearing and seeing more about this transmission. Why was it being disassembled? What was the car being used for? How long had the PG been installed?

Can you post the pictures and elaborate on the story so we can avoid only having the "a friend of a guy on an internet message board I read says.." thing to use in trying to form an educated opinion?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bulldog_RS20 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't know where that comes from.</TD></TR></TABLE>
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phan·tom also fan·tom (fàn’tem) noun

1. a. Something apparently seen, heard, or sensed, but having no physical
reality; a ghost or an apparition. b. Something elusive or delusive.

2. An image that appears only in the mind; an illusion.

3. Something dreaded or despised.
---------

If you want a limited slip differential... use a real one (clutch being the best IMO).

I just find it strange that no automobile sold has a unit like this in it. If it 'is' (seems that it is) such a wonderful thing why is it not installed in cars when new?

Installing something like this in a differential is asking for trouble. IMO

but what do I know. :shrugg:

 

A couple of notes...

1. My ITC car had a phantom grip in it when I bought it. I hated it. I found little to no improvement over the open diff, so I switched to the OPM clutch diff. IMMEDIATE drastic improvement for me. Much better power application exiting slow corners.

2. Will and Bill Perry are excellent ITC drivers and both use PGs. BUT, you also need to know 2 things... (1) They drive older carbed Civics and CRXs that are lightweight with not-so-much power or wheelspin and (2) Rivergate is a PG dealer.
I like and respect the Perry's, but I personally ignore "testimonials" from a product dealer. Maybe thats just me.

3. Many ITC drivers in the lower powered sub-2000lb cars run open diffs. Helps reduce drivetrain drag on a car that doesn't have enough power to produce much wheelspin in the first place (also see #2 above). The PG is just a slight step up from an open diff.

4. I've heard rumors of Showroom Stock guys running PGs because they give a slight improvement over the open diff but are hard to detect without a tranny disassembly.
I dunno about you, but I'm not much interested in a "hard to detect" LSD.

5. The Phantom Grip appears to be the most aptly named product on the market.

6. Scott and Will agreed on something.

 

Well, I've still heard as many negative reviews as postive.

In our club we have a fellow that runs an old Opel Manta in E-Prepared (with real race slicks and all). The car dyno's at about 70 hp to the wheels.

His comments:

Locked differential, the car was brutal to drive, not predictable, and just not much fun.

Switch from locked to open and the car was instantly faster, but had some wheel spin issues.

Switch to phantom grip. Not a huge change from the open diff.

Install new, stiffer springs from phantom grip: Best setup he's ever had on the car.

For the people that complain of the phantom "slip" have you (or them) ever put in a stiffer set of springs?

Scott

 

That's the only pic I have and it isn't very clear but the trans was taken apart because the owner was told his diff was broken...We opened it up and teeth and metal poured out.

Sorry guys but I don't know any more of the story than that.

Frito

 

My friend and I installed one in his '85 CRX SI and ran it a Buttonwillow last weekend. It worked VERY well. A very noticeable improvement over stock. Not to say that there are probably better diffs on the market, I just know that this PG in this CRX works great. We are running the race springs in it rather than the street springs.

This crx was notorious for smoking the inside wheel in sweepers, now it just pulls.

It probably does help that its a very light car with only 100hp.

 

we need more info about the pic....what kind of car did that diff come out of? what was it used for? how much horsepower does it make?

I currently have a spare diff that has a PG in it and have been contemplating installing it. I may call PG and order the stiffer springs and try that.

or I may ship the diff to OPM and have a nice clutch unit built :shrugs:

 

may as well just weld the diff if you're going to run that crap...

 

where's my welding sticks?!?!?!?

 

Would damage to the diff like that in the pic above risk damaging the whole tranny with diff shrapnel or would the damage be limited to the diff? If only the diff gets toasted and the PG works it's still an economical LSD even if you have to replace the stock diff occasionally.

 

Mark me as a review. I put one in my ZC 89 street car and it made some difference the first year on a lapping day or two but any benefit over an open diff went away quickly. I'd be surprised now after about 20,000 miles if there was even 25% function remaining. It was very cheap and worth the risk I thought but I doubt I got the value from what I paid for it in the long run.

Like Scott said, remove the testimonials of the people who actually sell them and you'll find few who sing their praises. When I bought it, I specifically asked how they hold up on the street. "Great", "fine", etc. But withing a few months of the transactions, even minor questions to my dealer (a primary PG dealer) only got me a cold shoulder. I have used several OPM LSDs before and have one in the racecar now.

See if you can spot the trend of my purchases path: OPM, OPM, PG, OPM...

 

I've heard horror storries where the diff ate up the teeth or the plates grenaded in the diff itself.

I think for the money you could prolly find yourself a nice OEM ITR diff, rather than just risking it.

 

i have a pg in a b18c1 in my 93 si hatch. i know that its not a great inovative contraption, but it gets the job done fairly well. my launches and 60' times are way better than a few people i know who have b18c1's with open diffs.

and it did help with exiting corners. not a great deal, but it is surely noticable.

from what ive heard is that they seem to hold up to low/moderate power fairly well, but serious torque (BOOST/NO2) will destroy them.

to PG if on a budget and are all motor
REAL LSD if you can afford one

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">4. I've heard rumors of Showroom Stock guys running PGs because they give a slight improvement over the open diff but are hard to detect without a tranny disassembly.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have heard these rumors as well.

Now that I have actually driven a car with a PG, I can say they work well. It does not put down the power like a ``real'' diff, but it keeps the wheels from spinning so the car does not loose momentum. Also keeps the car from washing out under power. If you are going to run one, run it with a good suspension set up. It really doesn't work at all if your suspension can't keep the tires planted.

Considering I paid $250 for a Honda LSD with 5000kms on it, I would not go this route, but for others the PG is a cheap diff that does work.

 

just weld the thing, cheaper and just as good.......just not removable

 

Argh... From the looks of things, it looks like there's some hardcore friction going with this PG. I would say it's similar to clutch pack but we all know that those are rebuildable. Is there any mention of premature wear that comes with the instruction. Although it may not be PGs best interest to mention it but it would sure help if they are to establish credibilty.

 

Frito:
ARGH! Focus!! Thanks for posting the pic...

 

I'm not a dealer for the product so this is an unbiased review.

I installed one in my Civic (h4 number 3) and love the improvement. No more spinning the unloaded tire in Oak Tree or such turns.

True, it works through metal to metal friction.

I have NO idea how it could wear out the trans case. Or, cause teeth to grind up. Look at the pictures already posted and you will see where it goes. It just causes pressure between the two differential gears. Perhaps if the trans is out of alignment this might accelerate the wear......

There are different rate springs that you can have installed in it. That might be why some folks are not getting full benefit from it.

Well worth the time, effort (not much) and money.

One satisfied user....