Bigger Front Sway Bar Needed?
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Bigger Front Sway Bar Needed?
Trying to keep the car from running out of suspension travel. I know Mugen makes a 26mm bar, but $350 seems like about $150 of Mugen name.
(this is my co-driver btw)
I am running my Koni singles at full stiff in front and about 1 turn off full stiff in rear. I am not to concerned about understeer, because I can still stiffen up the rear with the shocks to dial that out.
Thanks
Shawn
(this is my co-driver btw)
I am running my Koni singles at full stiff in front and about 1 turn off full stiff in rear. I am not to concerned about understeer, because I can still stiffen up the rear with the shocks to dial that out.
Thanks
Shawn
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Re: Bigger Front Sway Bar Needed? (shamun)
Shawn,
Your car is rolling pretty far in the pic. But is that a bad thing? The important thing is that the tire patches stay flat on the ground. With our double wishbones they do even under extreme compression. In this pic its hard to see what the front tire is doing but from my analysis of pics of my car I would say that the tread is pretty firmly planted.
Going to a bigger bar will probably increase understeer mid-corner and you cannot dial that out by stiffening shocks but you can by changing tire pressures. Think twice about going to a bigger front bar. Try asking David Fauth who used to hang around this board. Also consult with Strano and get his take on it.
I have shaved about 2mm off my stock bar and I am going to the same Konis you have. i'll be happy to let you play with my Type R (although it looks like I am not going to make Divisionals).
Besides, you won the event, aren't ya going fast enough??? :-) :-)
Regards,
Alan
Your car is rolling pretty far in the pic. But is that a bad thing? The important thing is that the tire patches stay flat on the ground. With our double wishbones they do even under extreme compression. In this pic its hard to see what the front tire is doing but from my analysis of pics of my car I would say that the tread is pretty firmly planted.
Going to a bigger bar will probably increase understeer mid-corner and you cannot dial that out by stiffening shocks but you can by changing tire pressures. Think twice about going to a bigger front bar. Try asking David Fauth who used to hang around this board. Also consult with Strano and get his take on it.
I have shaved about 2mm off my stock bar and I am going to the same Konis you have. i'll be happy to let you play with my Type R (although it looks like I am not going to make Divisionals).
Besides, you won the event, aren't ya going fast enough??? :-) :-)
Regards,
Alan
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Re: Bigger Front Sway Bar Needed? (methred_92)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by methred_92 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What's wrong with using a stiffer spring?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Nothing if they were legal for my class.
Nothing if they were legal for my class.
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Re: Bigger Front Sway Bar Needed? (shamun)
A few DS ITR guys tried a larger front bar. That was not the answer.
Accept the rollover as part of stock class autoxing. The only thing you can do is have Koni valve you shocks so stiff that they minimize bodyroll. A few GS Celica guys did this and the car stays decently flat in the corners.
Accept the rollover as part of stock class autoxing. The only thing you can do is have Koni valve you shocks so stiff that they minimize bodyroll. A few GS Celica guys did this and the car stays decently flat in the corners.
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Re: Bigger Front Sway Bar Needed? (shamun)
David Fauth use to hang around Honda-Tech?!?! I'm in the CO region so I know who the guy is. He's a ridiculous driver, he's been driving the bimmer this year and has missed quite a few events. But in regards to the R if you could some how get David's attention he'd be really helpful. I've seen him run the R a few time and 
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Re: Bigger Front Sway Bar Needed? (RAB)
David used to be here and so did Roger Foo and Taz Harvey were as well. Seems like they haven't been here since the NASA ECHC guys took over :-) Coincidence - or strange power struggle - you decide :-)
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Re: Bigger Front Sway Bar Needed? (00R101)
I am not sure if David visits the board anymore. Sam was the one who suggested a bigger front bar. If a 99-00 Civic Si bar will bolt on, then I will probably give it a try for some local stuff....pretty low risk @ $100.
I agree with the contact patch part, but if I am running into bump stops in corners, the suspension travel in no longer linear and is probably making the car harder to drive than it needs to be.
Right now my car is very prone to oversteer, if I crank the rear shocks up a 1/4 turn it would be undriveable.
Is the Si bar a definite direct bolt?
I agree with the contact patch part, but if I am running into bump stops in corners, the suspension travel in no longer linear and is probably making the car harder to drive than it needs to be.
Right now my car is very prone to oversteer, if I crank the rear shocks up a 1/4 turn it would be undriveable.
Is the Si bar a definite direct bolt?
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I've got to agree with the other folks here. A bigger bar is going to unload the inside front a bit more, and the less weight you have on it the less effective your torsen LSD becomes. Unload that inside front too much (even if there is less body roll, that front bar will unlad the inside front), and eventually you lose the ability to power out of the corners. No point in making your car have the worst traits of a Celica GTS...
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Strano's input on the car.
>Sammy? Are folks in type R's going to revalved konis or other "more
>dollars" setups?
mostly revalves and DA's. However, I've driven the old Endicott car
(recently even) with "trick" Koni's. I think I can go quicker in it off
the bar than in Shawn's car simply because it's not setup as loose (not
because of the shocks). I also think that after mutiple runs I could run
about the same time in both, but be more consistent with a tighter car.
Sam Strano Jr.
Strano Performance Parts
http://www.stranoparts.com
800-729-1831 orders/price info.
814-849-3450 technical info.
>I agree. I have been saying for a while that the car needs some
>more compresion dampening. What you think?
I don't think so. It'll only slow down the roll (and it might not if the
damping is added in the wrong place). That picture is an example of steady
state. Only thing you can do there is flatten the car with a front
bar. IMHO, I think more front bar would only help. Look at the lean and
the consequent loss of negative camber on the loaded front
wheel..... Keeping the car flatter would help the contact patch, plus I've
never had an issue with a Type R turning, so I don't think making it too
tight would be an issue.... IMVHO
Sam Strano Jr.
Strano Performance Parts
http://www.stranoparts.com
800-729-1831 orders/price info.
814-849-3450 technical info.
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From: OH
Re: Strano's input on the car. (shamun)
Email Grainger (DS ITR Driver). He tried a larger front sway and got nothing but push out of the car. He said it would hardly turn.
I'm in the opinion that a larger front bar would cause you nothing but turn-in problems, but you're always welcome to test.
BTW--I would double-check the fitment of the 99-00 Si front bar. I don't recall it being a direct bolt-on, but who knows.
I'm in the opinion that a larger front bar would cause you nothing but turn-in problems, but you're always welcome to test.
BTW--I would double-check the fitment of the 99-00 Si front bar. I don't recall it being a direct bolt-on, but who knows.
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Re: Strano's input on the car. (Todd00)
Of course, we are all forgetting that CRXs benfitted tremendously from larger bars. But I know Jeff McCrea had an old West Coast ITR with a custom smaller bar and that car was the most neutral, easy to drive R I have been in. BTW he had off the shelf Illuminas.
Actually the guy I would ask is Heyward Wagner. He drove tons of Rs last year all across the country and he does know how to set up a car.
Does the 99-00 Si bar have end links like we do? Or can it be adapted to our end-links. If not then you are going to get a lot more bind from the sway bart than stock and that can never be good.
Regards,
Alan
Actually the guy I would ask is Heyward Wagner. He drove tons of Rs last year all across the country and he does know how to set up a car.
Does the 99-00 Si bar have end links like we do? Or can it be adapted to our end-links. If not then you are going to get a lot more bind from the sway bart than stock and that can never be good.
Regards,
Alan
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Re: Strano's input on the car. (00R101)
How big is the front bar on the ITR?? I am not sure if the 99-00 Si bar will fit, but if it a direct swap (which I have a feeling it is NOT), would you want to swap front bars with me? I would like to see how my car reacts with a slightly smaller front bar. If either of us are dissatisfied with the bar, we can just ship them back to each other. Still will cost money for shipping, but should be a hell of a lot less than $100! Let me know.
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Re: Strano's input on the car. (Todd00)
in regards to Matt Grainger....I won't divulge EXACTLY what he's running 'cause I don't know if he wants me to, but he is running a bar that is not stock, and it is not smaller. I will say that the bar is larger than the bar I have.
his comments are that with the set-up he has it rewards the driver who knows what they are doing. in slaloms and quick transitions his car is perfect. while it does push he has a fix for that in the works.
i know all of this b/c that'll be my nationals ride. I may even be in it at the Peru Pro, don't know yet though.
i will also say that it is damn near impossible to get straight answers outta that guy when you ask him about his set-up...he likes to beat around the bush
his comments are that with the set-up he has it rewards the driver who knows what they are doing. in slaloms and quick transitions his car is perfect. while it does push he has a fix for that in the works.
i know all of this b/c that'll be my nationals ride. I may even be in it at the Peru Pro, don't know yet though.
i will also say that it is damn near impossible to get straight answers outta that guy when you ask him about his set-up...he likes to beat around the bush
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Re: Strano's input on the car. (Todd00)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Email Grainger (DS ITR Driver). He tried a larger front sway and got nothing but push out of the car. He said it would hardly turn.
I'm in the opinion that a larger front bar would cause you nothing but turn-in problems, but you're always welcome to test.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
My thoughts are that shock and alignment can fix this.
The "big front bar" thing is one of the NEW things for us ES guys....and NOT just to rid ourselves of obnoxious inside wheelspin.
I'm in the opinion that a larger front bar would cause you nothing but turn-in problems, but you're always welcome to test.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
My thoughts are that shock and alignment can fix this.
The "big front bar" thing is one of the NEW things for us ES guys....and NOT just to rid ourselves of obnoxious inside wheelspin.
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Re: Strano's input on the car. (PseudoRealityX)
the 99-00 si uses a tie-rod style endlink, just like the R. provided the subframe's are the same, the bars are interchangeable. some say the R front bar won't fit on a 5th gen civic without different control arms, forks, and shocks, but i have one on my car without any of those modifications. unfortunately, without a car to look at i'm not 100% the SI bar will fit an R. for some reason i keep thinking they made some small changes in the sub-frame, but again i'm not positive.
i bigger front bar will promote better corner entry response, not worse. it will increase the amount of mid-corner understeer, but as noted before that can be dialed out with tire pressure and rear toe. the amount of understeer added by the bar is _significantly_ less then that caused by the outside front bottoming out. ask me how i know.
a bigger front bar will definitely help. despite the double wishbone suspension's camber curve, it is still not good enough to gain enough camber to keep the outside front square to the road under roll on the stock suspension. (even at if it could, you still want a little more negative camber then that to compensate for tyre deflection) most purpose built race cars can't even do that. there is no point in making a car rotate better if you have not maximized front grip, so going to a smaller bar would only make you slower or the car harder to drive. i've tried no front bar with enough spring to keep the car off the bumpstops and found that i couldn't turn the wheel fast enough (or far enough) in slalom's to get the car to respond fast enough to make it through clean. it was great on sweepers, just sucked everywhere else.
i implore everyone to not be so elitist to think that just because our honda/acura products have a better camber curve then most other cars that we don't have to perform similar modifications to make them fast. i also implore that you do not look to roadracers for ideas on suspension setup for an autocross car. very few tracks have the concentration of elements and extremes that an autocross course has. to think that what works on the banked turns of NHIS will work on the bumpy concrete out in topeka is ludicrous. the setup that works at NHIS won't even work at VIR, why would it work somewhere where the surface and speeds are nearly opposite they are so different?
nate
i bigger front bar will promote better corner entry response, not worse. it will increase the amount of mid-corner understeer, but as noted before that can be dialed out with tire pressure and rear toe. the amount of understeer added by the bar is _significantly_ less then that caused by the outside front bottoming out. ask me how i know.
a bigger front bar will definitely help. despite the double wishbone suspension's camber curve, it is still not good enough to gain enough camber to keep the outside front square to the road under roll on the stock suspension. (even at if it could, you still want a little more negative camber then that to compensate for tyre deflection) most purpose built race cars can't even do that. there is no point in making a car rotate better if you have not maximized front grip, so going to a smaller bar would only make you slower or the car harder to drive. i've tried no front bar with enough spring to keep the car off the bumpstops and found that i couldn't turn the wheel fast enough (or far enough) in slalom's to get the car to respond fast enough to make it through clean. it was great on sweepers, just sucked everywhere else.
i implore everyone to not be so elitist to think that just because our honda/acura products have a better camber curve then most other cars that we don't have to perform similar modifications to make them fast. i also implore that you do not look to roadracers for ideas on suspension setup for an autocross car. very few tracks have the concentration of elements and extremes that an autocross course has. to think that what works on the banked turns of NHIS will work on the bumpy concrete out in topeka is ludicrous. the setup that works at NHIS won't even work at VIR, why would it work somewhere where the surface and speeds are nearly opposite they are so different?
nate
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Sorry if I'm hijacking the thread or something, but I'm wondering about adding a front swaybar to my wife's Civic. She's going to autox in HS for a while, and I'm wondering what people think of just adding the front swaybar, and will the 2003 Si swaybar fit it? Should we just replace both, and let her go to STS? She's just in it for fun, and I want to decrease all that body roll somehow.
Thanks,
Kevin Allen
Thanks,
Kevin Allen
I forgot more about hondas then you will ever know....
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From: hop,skip, and a jump from the city,, new friggin york, USA
Re: Bigger Front Sway Bar Needed? (shamun)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by shamun »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
</TD></TR></TABLE>
nice pic! sorry to hijack your thread, but any chance there some pics of anyone else from the D.C. tour floating around out there?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
nice pic! sorry to hijack your thread, but any chance there some pics of anyone else from the D.C. tour floating around out there?
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Re: Bigger Front Sway Bar Needed? (rodney)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rodney »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">any chance there some pics of anyone else from the D.C. tour floating around out there? </TD></TR></TABLE>
http://www.ackthud.net/autox/washington/
http://www.photoreflect.com/sc...E001D
</TD></TR></TABLE>http://www.ackthud.net/autox/washington/
http://www.photoreflect.com/sc...E001D
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