I went to my first autocross of the year this weekend. Haven't been to an autocross since I started building the hatch late last year and then road racing it this year. It was an off weekend so my roommate and I took the R and his '00 Si. I forgot how long of a day an autocross event seems. My runs were in the low 50's and I got six runs, so about 6 minutes of driving for the whole day. It took 2.5 hours both ways to get there, and about 5 hours out in the sun. Ouch.

I never really liked this club either, it's the Arkansas SCCA club which is based in Little Rock. I spent a good 15 minutes making "STX" letters out of electrical tape for my big #24 magnets since I was no longer CSP and had long since removed the CSP letters. I get to the event and they inform me during the drivers meeting that I'm going to be "bumped up" to DSP. No explanation. So after the meeting I chase the coordinator down and he tells me that since I have no one to compete against in STX, I have to change classes. I've never heard of this! So I look over at this Fiat or something, sitting on a trailer with like 245 width race tires, that is in DSP, and I'm thinking.... right, this makes sense. This is fair. So I wasn't even going to argue that if I should be Street Prepared-anything, it should be CSP. I figured I was going to get smoked.

It ended up being me, the Fiat, a Saturn (also with R-compounds), and another race-prepped car, don't remember now what it was. The Saturn and the Fiat turned some pretty good times. The fastest time for a street driven car was 49.x's, and the Saturn and Fiat turned a couple 51.x's. The last two runs, I ran a 50.7 and then a 50.4 and took 1st place for the class. My roommate (Bagelw) was in STS and trounced the local guys as well, taking 1st place.

All in all, while it was cool to do some competition in the R, (though in the wrong class) I have to say I'd rather pay $150 for a day of road racing where I get an hour of track time and don't have to work out in the hot sun (I'm a pasty white cry baby, what can I say). Anyway, just my thoughts of the weekend... would still like to do another autocross in the hatchy though.

Anyone else get moved out of class because there was no one else in your current class? Doesn't seem normal, I know my regular SCCA (NEOkla) club never did this.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by uncleben &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Anyone else get moved out of class because there was no one else in your current class? Doesn't seem normal, I know my regular SCCA (NEOkla) club never did this.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Its called bumping and it happens all the time. I'm not sure where STX bumps to, but DSP makes sense. Glad you kicked their asses anyhow...wish I could have trounced a Fiat this past weekend

Mike

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RacerMike &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Its called bumping and it happens all the time. I'm not sure where STX bumps to, but DSP makes sense. Glad you kicked their asses anyhow...wish I could have trounced a Fiat this past weekend </TD></TR></TABLE>

Hmmm, never experienced that in my normal club. Interesting. I think D-stock would have been more appropriate since the only thing putting me in STX was a filter on a stick and a 4-1 header. But that wouldn't be fair either I realize. Either way, interesting rule.

oh and forgot to post a pic from the weekend, that's always required



This thing was all sorts of tricked out, making some ungodly amount of horsepower, I think I heard 400. It was running 52.x's though

 

I've never heard of bumping either. The Colorado region SCCA lets you be the only one in your class. But I'm in STS so that never happens to me.

 

CO region rocks. Especially when you beat up on guys like Weston.

 

STL region as a general rule will not bump. Although, it does happen elsewhere. So I could take my STS GSR and run AP if no one else was running, and get a first place trophy. LOL

We do have points rules to avoid people jumping classes to get 1st place all the time.

 

Some SCCA regions bump you to different classes so you can get a trophy at the end of the day. I know "whoopee!" They want you to feel good by giving you something at the end. They won't give you jack if you're the only one in your class.

However if you were to compete for a season, I would think they would tally up your points in your "normal" class.

... the most important thing is (hopefully) you had fun.

I agree you get more for your time and money with track days. Autocrossing can be just as fun, but it's on a different mental plane. I can say this because I am one, autocrossers are sick people. We spend 8 hours for 8 minutes of driving.
The good part about autocrossing is you can push it 10-10ths without (usually) worrying about wrecking.

Autocrossing = shot
Track Days = beer

One just lasts longer.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by emwavey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The good part about autocrossing is you can push it 10-10ths without (usually) worrying about wrecking.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Heh, oh I push it 10/10ths... regardless of worrying about spinning/wrecking. At least I *think* I'm pushing it 10/10ths, definately when I'm trying to get around a competitor. And I really think you *have* to push yourself, and know that you can afford to wreck, because if you can't I don't think you can do "what it takes" to win.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by uncleben &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I went to my first autocross of the year this weekend. Haven't been to an autocross since I started building the hatch late last year and then road racing it this year. It was an off weekend so my roommate and I took the R and his '00 Si. I forgot how long of a day an autocross event seems. My runs were in the low 50's and I got six runs, so about 6 minutes of driving for the whole day. It took 2.5 hours both ways to get there, and about 5 hours out in the sun. Ouch.</TD></TR></TABLE>

At least they gave us a lunch break unlike our SCCA Club.

And I just messed myself again after seeing that WRX picture.

 

keep in mind, you're $150 for a track day and 1 hour of driving is a better deal as long as you don't screw up. and if you mean track day as in open lapping, autocross has a competitive aspect that makes up for the shortage of track time. if you meant track day as in club racing w2w, that $150 is only part of the cost for the event. add in tires, towing, damaged parts, brakes, etc, the price is _significantly_ higher. and we haven't even covered car prep. autocross still gives you the best _competitive_ bang for the buck.

nate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and if you mean track day as in open lapping, autocross has a competitive aspect that makes up for the shortage of track time. if you meant track day as in club racing w2w, that $150 is only part of the cost for the event. add in tires, towing, damaged parts, brakes, etc, the price is _significantly_ higher. and we haven't even covered car prep. autocross still gives you the best _competitive_ bang for the buck.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, I mean wheel to wheel. Yes, there is gas for towing, and occasional damaged parts (nothing too expensive so far). My tires will have lasted me for 3 (now 4) event days. I'd say that's pretty good, even for a serious autocross competitor. And I'll still be on my same set of Panther XP pads for this 4th race as well. Granted, I have a ~2000lbs Civic that is pretty easy on brakes and tires. And car preperation is not higher, unless you're running in a stock or close-to-stock autocross class. There are plenty of people that spend thousands preparing a car for Solo2. Not saying that most do, but some.

Either way, I'm not trying to start an argument. It's funny how people take an opinion (that's all it was) and turn it into an argument. For ME I'd rather spend more money to do W2W, for the level of "fun" I get, then when I do an autocross. That's all.

 

UncleBen,

Yes W2W gives you more seat time but I think your fooling yourself if you think that you get 1hr seat time for $150 vs 6 minutes for $20.

If you factor in the cost of safety equipment and the cost of a car and the cost of a tow vehicle and a trailer and the cost of driver's schools to get licensed and the cost of hotels (since you go to a race weekend not a race day) then the $150 is just the tip of the iceberg.

The final cost is one for major repairs. The reality is that if you W2W you will probably wreck your car and if you autocross you probably will not. All the racers I know say its not a question of "if" its a question of "when"

Finally factor in the increased risk to life and limb (can you say lost wages? can you say no health care coverage?) and the $20 for 6 minutes of seat time starts to look like the bargain that it really is. Yes, road racing is different than autocrossing, but don't claim that its a better deal.

BTW - I appreciate your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. It just sounds to me like you are misrepresenting the real costs involved in each sport (could you be fooling yourself?)

Regards,
Alan

 

The advantages are well beyond just seat time my friend. Maybe it is you who is fooling yourself if you don't realize that. I dunno, maybe that's a good thing?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you factor in the cost of safety equipment and the cost of a car and the cost of a tow vehicle and a trailer and the cost of driver's schools to get licensed and the cost of hotels.... then the $150 is just the tip of the iceberg. </TD></TR></TABLE>

You are correct about the tip of the iceberg. Yeah, add up hotels and food and all that, sure, it gets more expensive. But doesn't the same happen when a lot of people go to a regional/national Solo2 event? A race-prepped car, trailer, tow-vehicle, gas, hotels, food, etc. etc. So W2W racing is not the only auto sport where the $$$ will rack up over a weekend. Agreed?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The final cost is one for major repairs. The reality is that if you W2W you will probably wreck your car and if you autocross you probably will not. All the racers I know say its not a question of "if" its a question of "when"

Finally factor in the increased risk to life and limb (can you say lost wages? can you say no health care coverage?) </TD></TR></TABLE>

Do you think if the "fun factor" was the same, or only slightly greater to road race, that any of us including myself, would do this? Obviously not. So you have to ask yourself. What makes people spend a bunch of time and money, risk balling their car, and/or risk personal injury? Hmm? More on that in a second.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes, road racing is different than autocrossing, but don't claim that its a better deal.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why can't I claim it is a better deal? I claim it is a better deal for me, not for you. So again, regarding what I just said, obviously there are some of us that find road racing so much more fun then autocrossing, (or bowling, or dominos, or whatever) that we decided that all the above items you mentioned as "negatives," didn't outweigh the amount of fun you gain from the sport. Hey, I'm just a newbie at this, I'll admit that - I'll have only done my 4th race this weekend, and I've not spent *that* much $$$ yet, so maybe I'm just not skeptical yet. But I can already tell you that I'd spend a lot more if it meant I could escalate the "fun factor." So, whether that means driving a faster/better car (my Civic is a slow POS), or racing against tougher competition in a bigger series, or going to nicer tracks that are further away, or whatever... I can say I'd do it, as long as it stays fun.

But right now, I'm having loads of fun doing what I'm doing. Sure, I have a slow-*** POS car, I'm in the slowest class, I've not quite had the money to do some things I would like to do (ie, LSD/new FD), and I'm only racing a single track series until I finish my SCCA requirements. Am I having more fun than autocrossing? Hell yes. Way more fun. More fun that I would have dreamed even. Take my second race for example. I spun off track on the first lap, going from 15 of 31 to like 30/31... I fought back hard, so hard that you forget about time and being hot and tired and everything else. I had some amazing battles, regained my position and actually gained a few places, and ended up 2nd in my class. Ask anyone at the awards ceremony if I wasn't beaming from excitement. All I could say when I accepted my trophy was that I literally had the most fun of my life in that very race. So was it all worth it? Hell yes.

The moment all this becomes "not fun" then it won't be worth it, and then I'll probably move on. I'm not sure what it would take to make this not fun right now. Being seriously injured would probably take its toll. But that's the risk you take, and you try to be as best prepared as possible.

So the point of all this rambling? Yes, I made a pretty simple statement by saying "I got more fun spending $150 to w2w then spending $20 to autocross"... And yes, there are a lot of factors involved, as I've tried to explain. And no matter what I say to justify why I believe that, you won't understand unless you're standing in my shoes after that second race.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It just sounds to me like you are misrepresenting the real costs involved in each sport (could you be fooling yourself?)</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you haven't figured it out yet, I don't regret a thing. And I'm not oblivious to the money I have spent to get where I am, and I'm not oblivious to the dangers involved. No one ever said w2w racing would be cheap and or especially safe. You know what they say about kitchens and heat, right?

I'm not knocking anyone that is completely satisfied autocrossing, or maybe doesn't have the means to do something they want to do yet, I was simply stating how I feel. And I don't feel I'm misrepresenting any sport. I know a lot of people who are die hard autocrossers that can not see any reason to spend the extra $$$ to road race. I also know die hard road racers that wouldn't save $$$ to autocross. It's just all about where you're at and what you want to do as an individual. I never said it was right for you, or for anyone else. Just the decision I have made for myself...

 

Hey, at least you won your class!!
Bagel Williams, you still having issues with your ITR rear swaybar bolts?

 

they always bump cars here in Florida

 

Excellent points Alan. And yes, we W2W racers tend to kid ourselves about such things. It helps numb the pain ya see.

That said, for national level autocrossers, many of the same expenses apply. Trailering stock class cars across the country was once something I couldn't have conceived of...but I now see it as fairly common among the "National folks." At least around here it is...maybe they're just sick.

Still though, the danger aspect, and the cost of resultant repairs, is most certainly higher / less desirable in road racing. I think we do it because we're stupid and we're not good autocrossers (at least I'm not...), and since we know this, we look for ways to make it make sense

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00MRSi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hey, at least you won your class!!
Bagel Williams, you still having issues with your ITR rear swaybar bolts? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yep, the autocross made the swaybar move in the bushings even worse than before. I'm going to get some silicone grease and lube the bushings. Hopefully that will help.

 

I definately have some thoughts in response to your post.

First off, our local region (Nebraska Region) doesn't bump anyone. Our AutoX's are VERY competitive lately. They should've bumped you to CSP, and not DSP though. The only people that get screwed over here are the guys who are forced into D Mod when they would normally be in SM2, since we don't have a SM2 class. The most competitve classes here locally are STS, STX, and SM. I happen to run SM with my hatch and love going against the big, bad Supra (400+ hp beast).

Now for the comparison of AutoX vs roadcourse. Two completely different animals and if I had my choice I'd be all about roadcourse. However I cannot afford it. I work a job that doesn't allow me all that many weekends off I'd need as well. Bottom line is roadcourse racing is expensive. Even for Improved Touring guys...I found out the costs associated with it and it's not pretty unless you have a sponsor who is willing to front some big $$.

AutoX is very much different, but I feel confident I can pack a lunch and head out to my local AutoX and have a good time...while learning the limits of the car I bring out in a safe environment. I sure as hell don't plan on breaking anything with my 6-8 minutes of total fun for the day (knock on wood). AutoX is more of a social sport. As much as I don't like to go out and work the corners in the hot sun, it's still quite social and competitive for a low cost. Would I travel to compete AutoX on a Nat'l level? Not likely and if I were to become that serious and dedicated I would probably have the same time and effort to get into roadracing with an IT car (most likely an ITA CRX Si).

-Todd

 

Just so I'm clear:
When I first started to autocross, I really didn't like it. I wanted to drive fast, and not have to worry about figuring out where to go in the sea of cones before me.

Fast forward two years:
My wife and I now own a house, granted it's a nice house, but it also put a kink into my Road Racing plans. So for whatever reason I stuck with the autocrossing, and now really enjoy it. It was an aquired taste. There's less of a committment and like someone else commented, it's also a social sport... kind of like a car meet, where folks actually drive.

I applaud, no scratch that, I'm envyous of those doing the W2W thing, but I have no experience with which to compare this. I have done about 5 track days in the last 3 years. That's the closest I've been and it's always been loads of fun and a great learning experience.

Which is better (to me)? Not sure, but autocrossing, trackdays, and I'm sure, wheel-to-wheel racing is better then sitting in rush hour traffic. Traffic jams tend to excite me, but not necessarily in a good way.

About the 10/10th thing. I was refering to my comfort level at an autocross compared to a track day. I feel I can push the CRX to the limit at an autocross, but not at a track day. It's my daily driver, and I don't have a roll bar or cage... yet.

If you still have a sour taste in your mouth about autocrossing and aren't sure if you want to bother going back, do yourself a favor first. If you haven't ridden along with an instructor yet, do so. One of my first ride alongs was with Alan, it totally changed me perspective about the sport. The perception of speed can be the same in both track days and autocrosses.

cheers!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RealTypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">they always bump cars here in Florida </TD></TR></TABLE>

I noticed that last year when I was down near Pensacola, FL and attended an autocross there. I was put in with a prepared VW scirocco... with my Toyota Tacoma... weird. I do like the lunch break session though. At first I was thinking "what's going on - nothings happening! Let's get the next run group going people!", but then I realized it was "lunch" time even though nobody said anything. Ahhhh, the advantages of having less than 100 entrants...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I think we do it because we're stupid and we're not good autocrossers (at least I'm not...), and since we know this, we look for ways to make it make sense</TD></TR></TABLE>

shhh!! don't tell anyone that we suck at autocrossing! lol
I never thought I was the greatest autocrosser either. The ability to walk a cone-made track and immediately visualize the line and then *do* it... that takes a skill I have yet to master, and is what is required to FTD or consistantly win. Maybe if I was a kick-*** autocrosser I would still be doing it? Heh.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Yellow Dragon &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Bottom line is roadcourse racing is expensive. Even for Improved Touring guys...I found out the costs associated with it and it's not pretty unless you have a sponsor who is willing to front some big $$. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I still maintain that the average joe could roadrace in IT or in a local series for decently cheap. Sure, more than autocrossing... but again, my main point was that the fun-factor level more than makes up for it. I sure don't have a sponsor that fronts me big $$$. I have "sponsors" that give me discounts on labor and parts, but that doesn't make much of a dent in the costs associated with the sport unfortunately (and my car looks like advertising NASCAR *****!)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">AutoX is very much different, but I feel confident I can pack a lunch and head out to my local AutoX and have a good time...while learning the limits of the car I bring out in a safe environment. I sure as hell don't plan on breaking anything with my 6-8 minutes of total fun for the day (knock on wood). AutoX is more of a social sport. As much as I don't like to go out and work the corners in the hot sun, it's still quite social and competitive for a low cost. Would I travel to compete AutoX on a Nat'l level? Not likely and if I were to become that serious and dedicated I would probably have the same time and effort to get into roadracing with an IT car (most likely an ITA CRX Si).</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree 100% with everything you said there.
It does sometimes surprise me to see these guys showing up in pimp covered trailers with race-prepped cars with tons of money in them, just to chase cones for 6-8 minutes. For a national competition, I can understand, but I'd still put that effort towards wheel-to-wheel racing. Just me though.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by emwavey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If you still have a sour taste in your mouth about autocrossing and aren't sure if you want to bother going back, do yourself a favor first. If you haven't ridden along with an instructor yet, do so. One of my first ride alongs was with Alan, it totally changed me perspective about the sport. The perception of speed can be the same in both track days and autocrosses.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I've autocrossed on maybe 30 or so occasions, and I wouldn't say I have a sour taste, it is still fun. And I have ridden with a lot of talented people - "wow" I'd say was my response to some of the rides. It's amazing what some people can do. I let one of our clubs best autocrossers (3rd out of 2000 or so in the Mazda Rev It Up series) drive my Type-R at one of the Solo2 events. Amazing. So don't be mislead, I won't stop autocrossing, I was just stating where I have more fun and would rather spend my weekends.

 

yes, you are entitled to your opinion. i wasn't attempting to start an argument, but i think the comparison of 1 hour st for $150 vs 6 min of st for $20 is misleading at best. yes, there are some autocrossers that spend buckets of cash. in fact, i was talking to some AM drivers and SS drivers about the cost of being competitive in those classes, and wouldn't ya know it, AM won out over SS as being cheaper. go figure.

anytime you compare roadracing to autocross you are bound to step on some toes and start an argument. a safer approach is to not compare them at all. it's almost like telling a pro basketball player that you think pro soccer is more fun because you don't have time outs every 5 min. so what? to the basketball player, basketball is more rewarding. likewise for the soccer player.

nate

 

I think what's important here is that we all like at least one form of motorsport. And that we can respect the skill and comitment that it takes to be good whether it's W2W or Solo II. I guess we can disagree about the relative merits and liabilites of each but still agree on the skill thing. I certainly respect anyone who is doing the W2W thing.

I am concerned that newbies might be mislead into believing that the financial commitment and physical risks of the two are comparable.

Regards,
Alan "who always wanted to do W2W until he realized how freaking expensive it is"

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00R101 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think what's important here is that we all like at least one form of motorsport. And that we can respect the skill and comitment that it takes to be good whether it's W2W or Solo II. </TD></TR></TABLE>

here here!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am concerned that newbies might be mislead into believing that the financial commitment and physical risks of the two are comparable.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

well, lol, I'm sure they'll figure out what's involved before going off the deep end.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Alan "who always wanted to do W2W until he realized how freaking expensive it is"</TD></TR></TABLE>

cheaper then you think... hit me up an IM if you're interested. I've recorded every last dime that I've spent building the car and everything that's gone with it.