Hello y'all,

I was thinking today about how I keep hearing/reading about 12-13 second Civic hatchbacks (even 11's?), and how they run on street tires (so many "street" kills in the Kill Stories forum), and this all sounds like great fun. It's a big reason why I'm looking for an EH2 myself (amongst many other reasons).

However, I was also thinking about my current car (VW GTI VR6) and the people I know who run superchargers/turbo's have a lot of problems hooking up on street tires, and unfortunately can't really break into mid 13's without slicks. Granted, my platform can only run up to 205's comfortably (without fender modification), but I don't see Civic's running much wider than that, if at all.

So how is it that the Civic can get traction pushing that kind of power and running those times, while the VW can't? My main theory was an issue of power/weight.

To get my car into low 13's, I'll probably need about 260whp, on a 2800lb car, so the 205's just aren't wide enough to hook up.

Meanwhile an EH2 weighing in at 2000lbs (not sure about this) would only require about 210whp, and therefore the 205's would be enough rubber?

This theory is really not based on much, but it was the best explanation I could think of. Could someone shed some light on this for me?

I'm considering moving onto the Civic because of the limited potential of the GTI (for traction reasons), but I just can't get over this mental hurdle.

I apologize for any errant information, a lot of this is conjecture based on my own limited knowledge.

Thanks for your help/insight, please don't flame me for being ignorant, I'm trying to learn.

 

Its not your tires or your weight. Its your motor. Problem is that you have a V6 has more torque then honda's 4 cylinder. The traction problem is because of torque. Look at it like this. The Integra weighs almost the same as your car 2800 pounds. And uses the same size tire 205/50/15's. But there are numerous 11-12 second Integra's. The reason is because Honda's dont have more torque then they need. What they have is higher RPM's. So now what we have is a car that has enough torque to get it started without over doing it, plus we have the high rpm to get more speed out of the car. Higher RPM's equals more speed. Bigger cubes equals more power. Get it?

 

At first when I saw the topic I feared it would be a street racer type deal - thanks for the refreshing change of pace.



To help you out, I only make 176whp with 130ft-lbs. of torque and I ran 13.3@101mph with a 2.0 60 footer (could hit 1.8 with good heat) on 20'' M/T slicks.

The cars like mine have little weight to pull around, so we don't experience as much of a traction problem getting into the 13's because it doesn't take nearly as mush whp to do so as the 2800lb. VWs.

This is not to say that launching a honda is EASY, but it is certainly easier to do so if you only have 180whp and only weigh 2100lbs. or less, you know?

 

Also let me say that there are some mid 12 second all-motor STREET TIRE Hondas around too. There's currently a topic about it in wither the All-Motor forum or the Drag Racing Forum. Some of them are full exhaust, full interior, daily driven Hondas too.

 

Thanks for the info so far, my question is mainly concerning street-driven cars, I have no interest in entering the world of gutted out, slick tire, lexan window track cars. A "12 second all-motor street tire Honda" is exactly what I'd be looking for in my future EH.

The post about less torque is intriguing, makes me think that to get better track times, I'd have to detune my VR6 to have less torque off the line?

All further input is welcome!

 

Wouldn't say detune it. It just has more displacement so that is just one of the aspects of bigger motors. They have more torque. Naturely I would not detune it. It might run even worse then.

 

One of the few things that will help decrease a cars torque off the line, but will not hurt it while it is rolling is a lightened flywheel. Might want to try that first.

 

Yup its that motor. The torque is great, but that only helps ya at the beginning and even then only with a good launch.

Me and a close friend raced our swaps (i have a B18C1 in a cx, he has a VR6 in a cabriolet) and where we thought it would be close, it was a murder. Were going to take them to the track to see if its any different up there.

http://www.we-todd-did-racing....DE%3D <-- (RIGHT CLICK AND SAVE AS if you want to see it )

 

keep off the gas at launch... if you just let the car go from a start w/o trying to "launch" at 3k or more then it won't loose traction... you are reducing you torque when it's negative by not stomping on the gas.. it my slow you down a little but if you're loosing traction and not hooking up anyway it may make you faster.

try starting like you would at a normal stop light. then floor it as soon as it's rolling enough to have traction.

 

put it this way. A vr6 has what like 172hp and 173ft./lb's of torque i am pretty sure...and a 99 civic si with the b16 motor has like 170hp and 111ft/lb's of torque. By looking at those numbers it would seem like the vr6 would destroy the si easily. I have two friends one with an si with bolt-ons and another with a glx vr6 getta with intake, chip, and some kind of performance intake manifold. It looks like the vr6 would be making way more power. They raced twice. One race the si won by a car or two and the second race it was vice versa. The reason is becuse of the traction problems of the vr6. The guy with the vr6 just has a very hard time getting traction off of the line. That is probably why these hondas with less power are pulling the same or better times.

 

Torque sux for front wheel drive cars. Makes traction more of an issue.

Don't dub's put down alot of torque...that would explain (And weight) why NA Honda's (Civic's esp.) are most times quicker then their Dub counterparts.

 

yea if it was rwd it would be way better for traction

 

Torque does play a big part on those two cars. My brother has a VW Corrado G60
Supercharged, putting close to 215hp. The VW has a very short 1st gear, he raced my other brothers 94 GSR and took him off the line through 3rd then the GSR has higher RPM's and took him. Traction Control or a Vicious LSD might help. Torque is nice to have right in line with the HP.

 

Weight and tq. are you biggest problems. Vw's are great cars, but when it comes to weight you cannot beat a b18c whatever hatch. My brother has a 2k2 vr6 with bolt ons. I,E,H. I have a cx with a b18c + bolt on's. I crush him on the street. On the track I pull 14.1's at 98.8 with street tires. He pulls about a 14.9.

I love my cx, No options and light weight = less hp /tq needed.

 

the more torque you have down low the more tire is needed to get traction off the line. That why you dont see mustangs and camaros with 205's on there car. Hondas can get away with that because their torque is at high rpms therefore they grab at low rpm's and pull all the way till redline. HTH

 

Thanks for all the replies, things are starting to make sense.

So I wasn't too far off about the power/weight thing...

The lighter EH (with whatever motor) has less torque than the VR6, making it more suited for launching a FWD car.

Related to that, the lighter EH with less power/torque can get away with 205 width street tires and have better traction, for above reasons.

To conclude, lightweight + low(er) torque + good top end = low 1320.

****, now all I have to do is learn how to drive better.

Thanks again, everyone.

 

do any vw's come with lsd's like we can get for our honda's? A definate plus i think for launching. I remember trying to launch my b20 integra the first time at the track with the "so called" lazy geared ls tranny and i just spun through the first 3 gears and hadn't even moved yet. Only one wheel was spinning. I only dumped the clutch at about 3-3500 rpms. Too much low end torque/weight for launching that car (with those tires anyway). Meanwhile another guy with a stock b18a engine was dumping higher and hooking up sooner ( and got an ET a second lower almost).

Of course if i learned a launching technique i could have done better, but that wasn't my point.

Ultimately, the rule of thumb is the car with the best hp to weight ratio is the faster car (not to mention the many influencing variables). With honda's 4 banger 16v engines (and especially the vtec engines) they basically take the "displacement dictated" torque and move it up to the top of the rpm band. A vw 8 valve 4 banger has their "displacement dictated" torque and they put it in the low revs. Great for daily driving, bad for racing. Same deal with your 12 valve v6 (not to say its slow, just that its not ideal for racing).

The other issue is torque to weight ratio, especially low end torque -for launching. It has to be the perfect blend btw torque, weight, rubber, tranny susp. setup and skill. And the honda's seem to be getting it NA. I guess the v6's just have overkill torque for a small car.

Here's a quick scenario as an example. My friend has an '86 gti. A 1.8L 8 valve with mild bolt ons, 102hp stock, good shape. He challenged my newly acquired '94 cx hatch (with 1.5L 16v 102hp with slightly less milage, less torque) to a race. After i womped him with my 2.0L integra (it was a no brainer), he was ready to have his revenge on honda by beating up on my wimpy stock civic.

Looked his car up and it weighs about 100 lbs more than mine( we weigh the same). I explained to him that i would win, he said no way, not with a 1.5L (I looked up the quarter mile times too -hehe). Anyways, we did some rolling starts (to take the launch variables out of it) in first and second and i slowly rolled away from him every time. Did a low rpm roll from third, tho, and he jump up half a car (low end torque) then i reeled him in and passed.

I'll never forget that look of sheer disgust i saw on his face in my rear view mirror, during that first run, as he realized the importance of hp to weight in racing

d

 

hahaha battle of the titans

 

Cries because he has around 250 ft/lbs and is FWD


Matt I remember when they raced, but you also gotta remember that Dyer's Si also weighs like 300 pounds less than Charley's VR6...and Si's have 160 hp

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hahaha battle of the titans </TD></TR></TABLE>

haha, i know, i know. He just wanted to get one over me before i put the b18c in there. He says he's going to drop in a chipped and pullied g60 to stay ahead of me. Told him he'd better get a lot fatter tires or he will keep losing. Poor guy, I just can't explain to him the importance of hp/weight/tork ratios. But its vw or nothing...

d