I've been planning out the all motor H22 project for a while. With sleeved (of course) block, 12.5 CR pistons, JUN 3 head package and TWM throttle bodies, I've done some research as far as the Aquamist Water Injection which was originally intended for FI systems, would cool off the combustion chambers.

With top fuelers and such running methonal and alcohol in their setups, water injection would make it possible to run alcohol/methanol at the track, and also make it possible to run 93 pump gas provided retarted timing and such.

Any body else think of this or have it set up?

This is the project I plan on taking it to, hopefully running low low 10's and have a killer all motor project.

Thoughts and theories highly couraged!

TIA.

 

ive always thought about this also.

you would have to have 2 fuel systems of course, 1 that handles alcohol, and other regular gasoline. different pumps, lines, and injectors.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybridvteceg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ive always thought about this also.

you would have to have 2 fuel systems of course, 1 that handles alcohol, and other regular gasoline. different pumps, lines, and injectors.</TD></TR></TABLE>

damn. that'd be one nasty *** thing to get setup, and definitely custom nonetheless

My question is what CC's and would Injectors such as RC's (maybe 550's) able to handle alcohol and such?

 

i think you actually need alcohol injectors, but if im wrong there, i definately know that you need almost twice as much flow as you would need for gasoline on the same setup.

 

You can do this, and has been done before. There are water injection kits for RV and trucks that allow them to run 87 octane, pull a their load and not detonate. They are marketed solely as a cost effective way to run lower octane gasoline, yet still achieve the same preformance.

I have personally used water/alcohol injection on two turbo cars, and it worked great. With 93 octane I was around 100 octane after methanol and distilled water mixture, I was able to push the stock gsr block to 18lbs on pump gas before any signs of detonation occured (thicker headgasket, not on stock compression).

The way I would see this working is a vacuum activated switch, the opposite of the pressure activated switches in the aquamist kits. To be able to injector the mixture into the ITB's you are going to need to purchase 4 sprayers, I would use Aquamist brand since they have R&D'd them to have a good repeatable spray pattern. They make sizing from 1-12, the smallest numerically being the least flowing, the largest flowing the most. When you inject alcohol you need to inject pretty much double to achieve a stoich mixture (around 7.5:1), so if you were using 1600cc injectors they would be 800cc with alcohol. I would use 1-2 sizes on the sprayers, its going to be trial and error to get the set-up down right. The idea is great, and I have mentioned it to a few people I know that are heavily into all motor and they all agreed it would be effective. The only downfall is how alcohol reacts with oil'd parts. Its tends to chemically break down oil, so the oil on your sleeves tends to get broken down quickly. The wear on the rings becomes much quicker and rebuilds happen faster.

 

Since you're looking for ideas -- don't forget to check out propane injection. It raises the octane AND cools the incoming air...

Here's one example: http://www.importpoweronline.c....html

What I'd like to see is a continuously variable flow valve for the propane, connected to an engine management system like AEM so you can keep the ratios A/F/P right where you want them...

Mark

 

water takes up valuable combustion chamber volume. Just something to remember

 

the propane thing doesnt sound like a bad idea... but i rember reading somthing where if you run alcohol it is extreamly corrosive, so you would probiblly have to run SS lines or somthing for that...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by skribblah &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but i rember reading somthing where if you run alcohol it is extreamly corrosive, so you would probiblly have to run SS lines or somthing for that...</TD></TR></TABLE>

SS lines won't help. You'll need to flush out the ENTIRE fuel system after each event to prevent corrosion. Pump/Lines/FPR/Rail/Injectors/etc.

 

yes that's true.

I have heard of propane injection, but mainly for diesel motors.

I haven't heard of running them in normal gasoline engines, though. it would be effective for boost on that webiste you pointed out (and thanks for it), but would it be more effective for running 12.5:1 or 13:1 compression ratio with 50 mm TWM Throttle bodies?

 

The aquamist setup is alcohol compliant, so no problems if that was your choice of pump/injector. You could also use a plastic tank (I use the windshield washer tank on my Aquamist application) which is already designed to handle an alcohol mixture.

C_A_T

 

you'd need to be careful since in most all motor setups there is very little cc volume as most try to keep to a minimum to obtain max compression, "mist" takes up space in the chamber (even more so at high rpm including crank flex and rod bolt stretch),so thats a lot of space, plus you're dumping twice the amt of fluid (alcohol vs. gas) thats a bit risky imo ... so you'd prolly wanna weigh the cost benefit to cooler charge vs. risking bent rods


greg cheetah

 

Nah, that's not really a concern unless your engine has some serious problems (dropping a cylinder permanently for example). For example, a 720cc/min injector flows about 12 cc/sec. Even at higher than normal pressures it won't flow much more than 15 cc/sec.

A 2.0 liter engine with 13:1 compression has a total chamber volume of about 42 cc. That means it would take the injector 3 seconds to fill it at TDC. But, of course, at 9000 rpm, the injector only has about 12 mS maximum between combustion events. So at 100% duty cycle, the most if could flow in that 12 mS is less than 1 cc.

Just make sure your H20/Alcohol injection system doesn't turn on when the engine is off (been there, done that, almost burned out a starter trying to pump all the fluid out of the spark plug holes :-).

C_A_T

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by poison &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yes that's true.

I have heard of propane injection, but mainly for diesel motors.

I haven't heard of running them in normal gasoline engines, though. it would be effective for boost on that webiste you pointed out (and thanks for it), but would it be more effective for running 12.5:1 or 13:1 compression ratio with 50 mm TWM Throttle bodies?</TD></TR></TABLE>

You'd have to be willing to experiment, and have some good tuning capabilities (Hondata yourself, AEM, etc).

Propane's octane rating is 101-105 (ish), so that's a plus.

Mark

 

with propane injection, i was thinking a simple tank, 2 guage regulator and line to the extra nipple on the intake. and have a small valve near the driver so on and off...with whatever PSI u want from the tank. what would be good pressure. and also:::

is the propanes only purpose to cool the temps, or does it actualy ignite and assist in making a larger combustion, some-what like nitrous?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybridvteceg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
is the propanes only purpose to cool the temps, or does it actualy ignite and assist in making a larger combustion, some-what like nitrous?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nitrous oxide is an oxidizer. It introduces "extra" oxygen into the mixture when the nitrous oxide is broken up in the combustion process.

Propane injection "helps" reduce knock by increasing octane. It's like running race gas, thereby allowing you to run higher amounts of boost....which in turn produces more HP. It does not *directly* contribute to more HP gains...it just allows you to run more boost.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybridvteceg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">with propane injection, i was thinking a simple tank, 2 guage regulator and line to the extra nipple on the intake. and have a small valve near the driver so on and off...with whatever PSI u want from the tank. what would be good pressure. and also:::

is the propanes only purpose to cool the temps, or does it actualy ignite and assist in making a larger combustion, some-what like nitrous?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Propane can actually replace gas altogether, and used to be popular as a replacement. It has a higher octane, but a little less (90%?) BTU's per unit. Burns a lot cleaner... might help with emissions.

It would tend to richen things, so it seems like you'd have to tune for it...

As for pressure, I haven't a clue beyond that they show on the various web pages. I think you'd be in the pioneer space. I did read one page today where the guy had mixed propane and NOS on his race car. *That* would be interesting.

Mark

 

i know nitrous is an oxidizer, but i was wondering if the propane would directly contribute to a power spike like nitrous. guess not though.

 

The propane injection sounds very interesting.

With water injection taking up CC volume, I would think that boost rather than Alcohol on that would be able to produce more power. Since there is really no 'pressurized intake'. And with boost, air is still crammed into the combustion chambers with an FI set up.

As for propane injection, would you have to have any signficant changes to the motor like injectors, forged internals or anything?

Of course I'm joking, but from what it sounds like, I can just grab my backyard BBQ propane tank, go to Lowe's and get some tubing with a flip switch, and hook up some propane to the Intake. That true or what? lol

You guys are an extreme help. I very much appreciate the input said thus far.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybridvteceg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i know nitrous is an oxidizer, but i was wondering if the propane would directly contribute to a power spike like nitrous. guess not though.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would think that it would since it cools off the Intake charge.

Propane would drop normal temps approx -40°, so with nitrous oxidizing the mixture, creating more heat, propane would increase the octane rating as well as cool the intake charge.

So a good Air/Fuel/Nitrous/Propane mixture would create some definite power with a great compession ratio.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by poison &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I would think that it would since it cools off the Intake charge.

Propane would drop normal temps approx -40°, so with nitrous oxidizing the mixture, creating more heat, propane would increase the octane rating as well as cool the intake charge.

So a good Air/Fuel/Nitrous/Propane mixture would create some definite power with a great compession ratio.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

oh i was just referring to propane only, no nitrous. but i think i described it above the setup im going to try in a few weeks when i have time, only for fun. is just what u described, but no "flip switch" just a regulator and a valve with the hose and like 1 fitting.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybridvteceg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

oh i was just referring to propane only, no nitrous. but i think i described it above the setup im going to try in a few weeks when i have time, only for fun. is just what u described, but no "flip switch" just a regulator and a valve with the hose and like 1 fitting. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh haha. Yea, please let me know how it does man. I am also about to install this whole thing and see what it does. I'd like to hear your reviews though.

What set up to you currently have?

I was just kiddin around with the flip switch and all that



Just make sure that **** doesn't leak inside the hatch! That reaks to hell!



As for those who have given input and such, much appreciated. Any of you guys have other suggestions/experience you guys know of?

TIA.

 

haha yeah i know u were jokin.

i hope ill be able to smell it but ill seal it up really good.

crucial all motor setup being pieced together in the garage.
stock LS swap for now. to hold me over till my beast hits the streets. 11.90s street class here i come.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybridvteceg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">haha yeah i know u were jokin.

i hope ill be able to smell it but ill seal it up really good.

crucial all motor setup being pieced together in the garage.
stock LS swap for now. to hold me over till my beast hits the streets. 11.90s street class here i come.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Damn right. I am doing this right now. Just have to buy the parts now

You just staying all motor LS motor? Or are you throwing on a VTEC head and such?

With the propane on stock internals, I would think that fuel pressure can be decreased to about 38 PSI and the timing being advanced.

What you doing for tuning as far as the propane injection.

Let me know man

 

whole motor is different.
no specifics and this is general but 235+ in a daily driver. bigger bore vtec

im just going to test it with the pressure out of the tank at about 30PSI i think and then advance fter i see what happens.
dont even know about tuning. u probly have to lean it out a little since the prop will cause it to richen up.