I know what you're thinking, "not another Azenis vs. <name other tire> debate. Use the archives and go away." But here's my deal:

I instruct for HPDE's, and I'll probably run maybe 20-30 track days this year. My '95 gs-r is stock. And I mean stock stock. Stock wheels, suspension, alignment, etc. It's also my daily driver so I intend to keep it stock. I'm saving my pennies for a race car, so don't try to talk me into suspension or some other kind of work. That would just delay my purchase of something more fun. It's also got 90k miles, so that stock suspension might not be what it once was.

Anyway, I need tires. I have been running Kumho 712s, but after finally (and I mean finally) wearing these out, I'm bored of the wild slip angles, screaming noises, and rather slow exit speeds that accompany them. They were interesting for awhile, and they certainly fit my budget, but I think it's time for something a little faster. I'd love to run Azenis's, but I'm worried that I'm going to wear out the outer shoulders within a few track days. They are sticky, and that coupled with the stock wheels, suspension and alignment, equals body roll, and lots of it. This of course leads to tire deformation as they roll over, and therefore rather quick wear on the shoulders. I've experienced this before with a set of SP8000s that only lasted for 2 track days before the tread blocks were peeling away from the sidewalls and they needed replacement. Granted those aren't the best tires, but there's no getting around this effect with my setup. That's why I bought the 712s. I figured they would slide before the car rolled too much, thereby eliminating some of that tire roll over. They were also hard enough that I could beat the crap out of them without too much worry of rapid wear. And this held true, I actually had rather even wear on them. But like I said, I need a change. I'm willing to trade some wear for some grip.

Now, has anyone out there had experience with Azenis's mounted on 15x6 wheels running stock suspension and alignment settings on the track? I've driven cars with suspension work (stiffer and a couple degrees of negative camber) with Azenis's mounted on 15x6.5 or 7 wheels and they are certainly great tires and wear well under those circumstances. But will they just roll over and wear out on the shoulders with my setup? Would I be better off with something like a Kumho MX that is narrower and likely less grippy? I want to have fun but my budget demands that these tires last more than just a few track days.

I've searched and I've searched for someone's account of how tires fair under these conditions. I've even ventured onto other inferior message boards looking for the answer, with no luck. Is there anyone out there that has experience with this? Short of that, I'd love to hear opinions on the matter. Thanks in advance.

 

Would you object to running some negative camber up front? A front-end alignment can't cost more than $50 (even in the Bay Area, CA, it doesn't.) I feel your pain, as my car has insufficient negative camber right now (basically, zero degrees.) It seems like 1-2 degrees will still leave you with reasonable tire wear (at least, more reasonable than wearing out the outer edges prematurely with no camber.)
-Adam

 

Hey fly LA boy

I'm have 205-50-15 Azenis on some rota slips (6.5" wide). The shoulders are wearing better than the S03s I had before. Got something like 25k out of the S03s with track, daily driving and some autoxes (autoxes really killed the shoulders). Of course, I've only done Thill and LS on the Azenis so far. Everything stock except shocks and a little toe. These are my daily driver tires. I might try the MX next if all the track and STS guys say they're close to the Azenis -- so far STS people are liking the MX tires. The MX might even take heat better than the Azenis.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mityVR6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Would you object to running some negative camber up front?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Without a kit I can't get any. I had a nice $120 alignment at Custom Alignment in Mt. View back when I lived in the Bay Area and all they could do was -1/2 degree up front with the stock adjustment. So I've tried and I'd rather not spend money on a kit. Anyway, hope to meet you sometime, Adam. Aren't you on the PDC list?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alu95 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm have 205-50-15 Azenis on some rota slips (6.5" wide)....Everything stock except shocks and a little toe....I might try the MX next if all the track and STS guys say they're close to the Azenis -- so far STS people are liking the MX tires. The MX might even take heat better than the Azenis. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah I remember your setup. But I'm thinking that an extra 1/2" in wheel width, coupled to the increased roll stiffness of your Koni yellows goes a long way to reducing tire roll over. Maybe it doesn't. I don't really know for sure.

About the MX's, that's promising to hear. I'm sort of leaning in their direction. They should bulge out much less than the Azenis's because they are narrower, and therefore offer crisper turn in and whatnot. And if they can take heat all the better as I'm mainly running Buttonwillow, Willow Springs and CA Speedway this summer. And it's going to be HOT!

 

Yeah, I'm on the PDC list. I was at Buttonwillow a few weeks ago.

Sorry you can't get more camber with your setup. I can't either without aftermarket hardware that has yet to be released by SPC. Lame.

-Adam

 

I still get the same huge amount of body roll with the konis; they do help tune the car a little on transitions (turn-in). The extra 1/2" in wheel width probably does help put the tire flatter esp with the wide Azenis.

I posted this in the other tire thread. Test by tirerack of the MX, KD, and AVS Sport:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/max_perf.jsp
Cliffs: KDs marginally better in the dry, MX better in the wet.

 

I run Azenis on my stock Si wheels which are 15x6. I've only got to do 3 track events this year but the tires look almost brand new still. No signs of roll-over. I also drive to and from the track on the Azenis which is about 140 miles from where I live. My suspension was stock shocks with Eibach Pro-kit springs but it would still lean thru turns so I don't think it was that much better than stock. I now have Koni Yellows and have only done one track event with the Konis so far.

I had the 712s before these and did about 10 autocrosses on them and used them for daily driving. They only lasted 8 months. My advice is too buy another set of wheels for the track and one set for daily driving. That is what I ended up doing. I think in the long run I'll save money on tires.

 

A street tire is just inherently not well-met for use on a track.. The tread depth is initially too deep, thereby allowing the tire to overheat and vastly accelerate wear when on the track. The degree of this, however, can vary between driving styles.

I would suggest shaved Azenis as a track tire, for its very low cost and very decent grip. But the daily driving requirement negates the feasibility of shaving the tire.. bleh. Another down side is, the Azenis are heavier than the MX. Something exactly like 22.6lbs to 19.1lbs.

Also, I'm unable to find a Kumho Ecsta MX below 205/50-15; the same as the Azenis.

There are alot of threads about daily driver/track tires on the miataforum.com boards. No. I don't drive a Miata.

 

I think i ran 7 HPDE events and did about 8,000 street miles on my azenis on 15x6.5" rotas last year, and they had another weekend left in them (at least) when i sold the wheels/tires.

They do get slightly harder as they wear down but still stick better than a kumho 712. I really dont like those tires at all.

If you do 20-30 track days and are easy on equipment then you could get by on 2 and a half sets of azenis i think.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mityVR6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Would you object to running some negative camber up front? ........ It seems like 1-2 degrees will still leave you with reasonable tire wear (at least, more reasonable than wearing out the outer edges prematurely with no camber.)
-Adam</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ah welcome to the wonderfull world of Hondas NO camber plate adjustment set up.

Your best but for any negative camber is just to get some springs to drop the whole car and stiffen things up. This will give you two improvements at a reasonable price. Eibach, Neuspeed or H&R sell springs with minimal drops, less then 2" which will give you that negative camber all the way around and also are stiffer then OEM springs to stiffen up ride and reduce body roll which should also help with shoulder wear on your front tires.
Like the Eibach Prokit, it should give a 1.3"-1.5" drop on an Integ which would put your front camber in the -1.4 to -1.1 area. Fine for daily driving a huge improvemnet for track days but not so sever to wear your in tires down. I don't know the spring rates off the top of my head but they are stiffer then OEMs and only cost about $250 max. Add on your 205/50 Azenis ($69) and Enkei RPO2-J 15x7 rims (12.4lbs!!!) and I think for less then $1100 you'll much better off in the long run. If you don't want to spend more for rims, I'd still get the springs for the first two issues of tire rolling and wear.
Cheers

 

I have to guess that wear will be better with the FFalkens than the Dunlops simply because of the difference in tread block size. The more blocks, the more "edges" are there and the more likely the tires are to chunk up.

That's mere speculation though. My GS-R hasn't been stock for years now, and when it was, we didn't have neat stuff like Azenis street tires available.

 

Another option not listed is a set of track tires on junkyard steel wheels. Something like a shaved Toyo RA-1 should suit your track needs quite well, and not be too expensive. And you could run whatever long-wear street tire you wanted.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Another option not listed is a set of track tires on junkyard steel wheels. Something like a shaved Toyo RA-1 should suit your track needs quite well, and not be too expensive. And you could run whatever long-wear street tire you wanted.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah I've thought of that. But this is HPDE, I'm not going for lap times at all so I think that could be a little extreme. And race tires like negative camber, in the range of -2 to -5 degrees.

EDIT: And RA-1s are totally unavailable in 205/50R15. Anywhere. I was just talking with a VP at Toyo last weekend and he was saying that even if he wanted those tires, he couldn't get them.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Civic242 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">....and I think for less then $1100 you'll much better off in the long run.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah, problem is there is no such thing as a long run in real life. Given enough time it will pay off to make that investment, but I'm hopefully only going to be running this car on the track for another 2-3 years. Over that period the math just doesn't work out. The car will stay stock.

 

Yokohama ES100's offer slightly more grip than Kumho 712's and don't squeal like stuck pigs in corners. Wear seems to be VERY reasonable as well. I think I'll get ~20-25k of street driving along with a few track weekends and as many autocrosses as I can make on my E36 M3 with ES100's. My car is heavy and much harder on tires than an Integra and these things are taking the abuse like a champ. Front camber is ~-0.7* on a MacPherson strut setup, so the outer treadblocks get LOADS of abuse but they're holding up to it surprisingly well.

They won't grip as well as an Azenis or Kumho MX, but you can't have your cake and eat it too! Since you don't seem too concerned with those last few tenths of a second per lap, I think you'd enjoy the ES100's. Just remember, they're a decently grippy street tire - nothing magical. Some people want a long wearing street tire that is as grippy as an Azenis... sorry, but not going to happen.

Kumho MX's seem nice, and I'm going to shoot for those tires once the ES100's wear out, but they do seem like they'd wear quite quickly.