since "Best Value Head Work" is going so well. i jus thought i start this up.

 

Haha, what are we going to discuss? It's going to turn into a pissing match

Suprdave

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Suprdave &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Haha, what are we going to discuss? It's going to turn into a pissing match

Suprdave</TD></TR></TABLE>

yup probably end up with piston deisgn and people hating each other

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b18bturbo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

yup probably end up with piston deisgn and people hating each other</TD></TR></TABLE>

sounds like fun to me

no serious, i was thinking more of block machining, best place to get a block sleeved, decked, balanced, best components, etc.... wasn't actually thinking of the best single "person" that builds them

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b18bturbo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

yup probably end up with piston deisgn and people hating each other</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's what I was thinking...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MugenGTR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

sounds like fun to me

no serious, i was thinking more of block machining, best place to get a block sleeved, decked, balanced, best components, etc.... wasn't actually thinking of the best single "person" that builds them</TD></TR></TABLE>

But that has been discussed many many times on here already. With head porting, theres a ton of stuff that can be done with slight differences making huge effects. With a bottom end build, theres only so much stuff you can do...its not a mind game like head work is.

 

I have to disagree with ya Mike. There are alot of things that can be done to the bottom end to increase HP. There is one operation that we do that we have seen a 12 - 17 HP increase in an all-motor application. Also, longevity is key, There are many little tricks to keep the bottom end fresh and running with optimal HP. I don't care how much HP you make, how long will it last???? I think the head is alot more difficult as far as the work is concerned, but the bottom end plays a very important roll in making and preserving HP. It is all about what you know, what you've tried and what works.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GoldenEagleMfg.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> There is one operation that we do that we have seen a 12 - 17 HP increase in an all-motor application.</TD></TR></TABLE>
So are you gonna tell us, or is it a trade secret?

 

Well, it's kinda like a trade secret, but harldy any one uses this process due to it's very expensive nature and the fact that not just any machine shop can do it right!!! Anyway, there are a few different opinions about bottom ends, but I think there is a great deal to gain from using one that is assembled correctly! I like bottom ends, call me an *** man I guess

 

So we are not talking about an assembly technique, but some machining process that you guys are doing? Do you do this to all blocks you sleeve, or just the race motors? You sleeved my block and it looks good so far

 

Vince...but you know what I am saying. We all have are little tricks but in the real world, esp. on a turbo app. you dont have insider secrets like on head work. I know you can say that both u and I have seen some aweful beatup motors make good hp and run quite well. I mean buy a set of pistons with gas ports and its gonna help...or brand of pistons will make differences. But these are not trade secrets...

 

We only apply these building methods when we are building the motor. Otherwise it is a shot in the dark. We sleeve motors for people eveyday, but the building is a lot more complex than just putting sleeves in. We take pride in our engine building. We just put together a motor for Team Mazda / Bergenholtz Racing that made 720 WHP and 610 Ft. Lbs of TQ at 7800 RPM with stock cams the first time on the dyno, remember this is a base tune . We could not boost more than 28 lbs because the motor could not breathe enough. We need bigger cams and then I expect the thing to rock at around 1000WHP no problem!!! There are certain things that make motor different from one another. Assembly plays a small part, but it is more of tolerance holding, processes applied to machining techniques and so forth that really seperate the amatures from the people that know their stuff and make a good living at it!!!

 

Yeah Mike you are right, the piston manu. makes a difference and all that, but nothing beats a good head. I was just saying that the bottom end can make a huge difference. I have seen some beat up bottom ends make power, but not as much as they should have and not for very long.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GoldenEagleMfg.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but nothing beats a good head.</TD></TR></TABLE>

haha...I think Mike would agree....I hope

 

i hope no trade secrets are leaked out in this thread, as i hope none were leaked out in the head thread. .. ..

 

I think, and this is just my opionion, that there is as much black art in machining a race engine as there is porting the head. Don't get me wrong I think there is much more labor in porting because it's all physical but I know for a fact (yes I have done it myself) there is a real skill in honing a block. when I was working for Pat Musi we had a Sunnen CK-616 hone and it takes getting a good ''feel'' for the machine to do it right, what I mean is to get the cylinder completly round and straight from top to bottom I think it took me about six months of practice to get a cylinder within 2 tenths from top to bottom. there is alot of power to be had in just who hones the block, we could tell something like this when we put the motors on the dyno and you could see how fast they sealed up.
I think other than honing you can teach any monkey how to bore or deck it's all in the set up for that stuff really no skill needed except a little common sense.
I think assembly is real important, he's the guy who figures where the rings are set at and bearing clearences- I was told this saying once on bearing clearences
" To loose you know it, to tight everyone knows it"

 

OT: did you handle the assembly of the engine in the CRX? or did the bergenholtz brothers or AEBS handle that?

 

Jisatsu race technology.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BoostingSnail &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

haha...I think Mike would agree....I hope</TD></TR></TABLE>


haha...yeah, I'll agree to that. Head, I totally agree with you. Hone jobs can make or break you. But to me thats kinda up to the machine shop...not a trade secret or even some engine builders as thats a machine shop skill. There are little tricks with ring caps and what not...but man, I see all the stuff little stuff on the flow bench that make a huge gain or you can do a ton of work to head with little gain or even a loss. With the bottom end, its just not like that. I know many people that have their things... With a turbo car, some might say to run the rings loose as boost will get behind them and push the rings even harder against the walls. Or some might say get them as close as possible until you are able to pull the motor apart and make sure they are not butting. I have seen motors with super loose gaps make real good power...but if those rings butt, your gonna hurt it. But those things to me come no where near the efforts of head work. Also, blocks are pretty generic whether its a VW, honda or Suburu. But the heads....man, they are so different with way different tech. in the way the work on the head is done. This is not so on the bottom ends.

 

jeff at IB

 

Vince, do you have to turn every thread into a promotion for GoldenVultureMfg? The only trick you have is to make one of your sleeves installed above deck disappear to below deck. Plus, if you would keep your crush to .0005 on the install, everyone would not have to align hone your work afterwards. But then if you could hold that tolerance, they would have to drop.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ninesecrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


. With the bottom end, its just not like that. I know many people that have their things... With a turbo car, some might say to run the rings loose as boost will get behind them and push the rings even harder against the walls. Or some might say get them as close as possible until you are able to pull the motor apart and make sure they are not butting. I have seen motors with super loose gaps make real good power...but if those rings butt, your gonna hurt it. But those things to me come no where near the efforts of head work. Also, blocks are pretty generic whether its a VW, honda or Suburu. But the heads....man, they are so different with way different tech. in the way the work on the head is done. This is not so on the bottom ends.</TD></TR></TABLE>


In the Last 5 years in NASCAR all of the teams have gained about 40 to 50 Horsepower Where did it come from? Um lets see 10 in the Head 15 in the cam and 25 in the short block. Now your wondering why only 10 In the head right
Cuase its a good piece and has been for 9 yrs yates head that is.Anyways there is a bunch of power too be gained in a good prepped block Im sure head will agree with me on this anyone who has seen the inside of a real race engine knows what im saying.

 

Sure theres power to be made in the block. But like I said, that can be pistons designs and what not. And this post was on tricks an engine builder can do to get my hp. So how is nascar doing it then? I mean if you want to break it down, they are making more power even cause oil advances...so add that in too.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lawman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Vince, do you have to turn every thread into a promotion for GoldenVultureMfg? The only trick you have is to make one of your sleeves installed above deck disappear to below deck. Plus, if you would keep your crush to .0005 on the install, everyone would not have to align hone your work afterwards. But then if you could hold that tolerance, they would have to drop.</TD></TR></TABLE>

And here we go again!! It never ends

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ninesecrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sure theres power to be made in the block. But like I said, that can be pistons designs and what not. And this post was on tricks an engine builder can do to get my hp. So how is nascar doing it then? I mean if you want to break it down, they are making more power even cause oil advances...so add that in too.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes oil helps
But thats just a qualifying thing with ZEROwieght oil
race oil is usally 10-30
6 years ago everybody ran 20-50 with .003 on the rods and mains
the engines were pumping about 12 to 16 GPM
Now the engines are pumping about 7GPM
Thats worth alot of power