DONT !! ahahah...

I did alter mine extensively, and i had to adjust the fuel rail and certain design flaws in the "honda design" and well i had to Tig weld my manifold in certain Key area's.....

well all of that to say that in their "manifolding process" they don't use quality aluminum composites...

where the two seams meet in the manifolding process well it really makes it hard to weld fix... the aluminum is very porus and not pure aluminum... makes tiging hard because you gotta grind the black **** out (manifolding sout process), and re-bead your welds.. takes time to gain a good penetration hold too....

what would take 10 minutes took me 1 hour... it's all done now... but still a battle...

i should have pics soon...

manifold was 12.6 pounds stock, tracking slightly at 5 pounds or so now..

flows better, looks better, lighter, worth it ??? probably not.... but since skunk2 ain't comming out "HELLA YEAH"

hell i'm certain i could make a killing jut by advertizing that i could mount a h23 flange to euro-type r manifolds hahahaha

(why did nobody ever think of this ???)

 

Why did you have to weld anything?

 

hehehe....

let's just say there are MANY ways to extract WAY more power from this manifold.

just need to know how to do it...

expect pictures soon... i'm just finishing polishing it ...

I can floss my teath from the inside and out now

after it's done and i'll be comparing on the flowbench 3 manifolds, Worked Euro-R manifold, worked stock manifold, stock manifold, with my portflow head.

and see which works best at each valve lifts.

then later this summer i'll do the dyno and see if flowbench number really do mean what the dyno says...

each will be tuned via a hondata s200 unit...

and also going to test out a custom manfold (aluminum) i've been personally working and designing for n/a application later but i won't show pics of it...

but i'll post comparisons of all...

 

You removed 7.6 lbs?! I have never in my life seen a port job that removed that much material and actually produced power w/o FI. Rememeber for the last inch or so of the runners you do NOT want them polished. Flow bench numbers don't mean much if you polish the crap out of everything.

 

I completed dremed out the complete EGR "Block" tapping in all the runners, and EGR holder, since my portflow head is welded. Alot of useless holders and re-inforcement that doesn't apply to my engine (that's where the most of the weight was). the port work maybe a pound or so with all the runners (inside) they are polished for gaining flow, for the section exiting the runners, you should see and feel an euro-r manifold then you wouldn't post that remark, a euro manifold is pretty soft casting wise, the only defects are when they mold the two together. I should have pics soon, didn't have time to go to the shop.

also my portflow head is polished by tom himself, and the texture looks like 180 texture wise where the injector hits the divider so I seriously doubt a polished entry would hurt it to much. not even a hp or so....

 

The reason why you don't polish the last inch or so of the runners isn't because of the injector firing pattern. It's because when that air flows though that area you want additional turbulance since this helps atomize the air/fuel mixture giving you a better mixture. Shape dictates a lot more of the flow than polishing the runners. You want the runners tapered along with smooth transitions rather than large port size and polished surfaces. A lot of porters leave the surfaces fairly rough to deflect the airflow off the walls.

 

here... is what a normal manifold looks like:



notice the bulky EGR block and EGR holder, also look at the flange notice how ti's configured differently (big square block) rather than the stock h22a flange...

how compare an skunk2 manifold (B series i know but same concept)



this is where you Shave alot of weight, the rest of the manifold only has about 3/16 to 5/8 of material in all area's.. runners have 3/16th so you can't really port them out to big.. because you'd have less strenght, but even if you ported to 1/8ths you still coudn't crimp it under pressure or vacum, because the radius curves add so much strenght to the whole thing...

i'll try to grab some pictures tomorow. and post some pics of the port work and inner runners since they are done, the outside polish work isn't as complete but i'll see how much in a mood i am

comparing is the best... also compare the skunk2 to the euro-r and you'll notice a couple more things..

you can actually cut the euro r manifold where the plenum begins and bring it one inch closer to the the head, without having 1mm of difference in the ports, mind you, a skilled tig welder is needed and some porting work again...

but that's my other project after i test this one out...

 

Have you ever seen an EURO-R manifold in REAL life, with your own two hands.

the injector port design on the inside of the manifold (is like i've never seen) ask 2point6, there is a reason why did this, it was to force the flow or air down into the port. you may why down ?? (compare both and you'll see why) now apply vacum flow dynamics and you'll know why the shape of hte manifold is so important..

if you ever see the flow "DIRECTION" in an h22a "dual stage" and "EURO-R" manifold you would quickly learn why...

I NOW Know why Euro_R manifold breaths way better under high rpm, then a stock manifold, it's got nothing to do with the "Atomization" of the port in the last 1 inch it's got to do with the direction of flow of the port.

the Euro-R takes full advantage of that flow for higher rpm power.. not just the lenght of the manifold.

atomization only occurs inside the head, not in the manifold. because the injector will only atomize about 1/4 of an inch inside the manifold pointing a roughly 40 degrees into the airstream.

so for that 1/4 wheather you have a turbulant air or not, I Highly differ that it would help or reduce efficiency of atomization.

it's not in the world of chev's and mustangs here... we talking about fuel injection with single bank injection. if atomation in honda head's were so important why didn't they flip the injectors so the fuel would go agaisn't the flow of air ? wouldn't that help atomization ?

when you have a manifold that breath's 250-300cfm of air at 8-9000rpm, that little 180-200 grit ripple for 1inch into the runner won't affect anything beyond a hp.. in real life it's the shape and direction of flow that's important..

atomizing it is done by the swirl inside the chambers when the right (i think remember ti's 1:14am) that opens before the left or vice versa.. when the piston sucks in the air, the duration of your camshaft with open one a couple degrees earlyer than the other creating all the swirl and turbulance you could ever ask for.....

if not we'd all have "TORNADO's" inside each runner of all our manifolds for MAD power YO! (wrong!)

it's easy, take a AIRSOLE can "intake carb cleaner etc" and shot some inside the runners after you stop, look closedly at the ripples that the liquid makes in proportion to the port and direction of flow, you'll soon see why there' a great concentration in one area or another... and polishing a manifold and plenum will help, defenly not 2-3hp..but if it gives 1 it's one more i had than before. I'm working this so when i get my hands on a skunk2 if they can get their thumbs out of their A$$'s then we can really see how good we had it (Euro-R) but never saw it's potential.

 

so hot wheelz, how much are you charging to modify one to fit my H22a?

 

to modify it ????? (specify)

it depends what you want done ?

you mean to weld aluminum brakets to mount an oem fuel rail or ? to fill the whole and re-tap for your IAC ??? what exactly do you mean by modifying ?

 

Turning the injectors backwards? That would yeild a lot of the spray on the walls and in large droplets especially with polished walls. Regardless of the design, it does matter for the type of airflow entering the ports. Think about a water slide, the water goes toward the outside, even with a good amount of water there's still going to be an empty section of the slide. Apply this to the intake runner, the small amount of turbulence at the end of the runner causes the air to spread throughout the entire port, being able to atomize the entire size of the port leaving little to no room for puddling. I'm trying to help you with your design here, not flaming so please quit preaching. That being said, the best flow numbers in the world don't mean jack squat if you don't get a quality air/fuel mix. Port design has a lot to do with it, but so does the air entering the port. To do an intake manifold right you want to have a 5-10% taper though the runner and add a little roughness at the end of the port to yeild the best results.

 

actually i'll test that out, after i test the manifolds, i'll bring some light stand paper rolls and scuff the ports like 3-4 deep making a perpendicular to the port.. that should cause enough disturbance and redo all the same tests to see if the superflow will pick up the difference. I'm not saying i don't beleive you it's just a bit hard to undestand but i'll take the challenge.. for the waterslide arguement... solid flow and air flow are two different things... denser materials have weight with goes with newton's law, wich will follor the sides in radius turns... in a lightweight substance.. dont' forget ports are subjected to vacum not positive pressure so when you think the of the engine sucking in the air, the runners wouldn't have a higher mass along the sides of the walls, but the inner section or simper said the shorter radius of any turns... meaning if you have a wide angle, the flow will concentrate on the smaller radius because it's a shorter distance from point a to point b, the ouside of the radius has less velocify and mass, when you presurize a port, then you have more pressue on the ouside or larger radius because your forcing air in not sucking it in.. two different principles, that's why headers are equaly as important but go with the design process of a turbo, because you push out the flow.....

not for arguing but it does make intersting conversation, why do all production rade manifolds (sheetmetal) retain stock port shapings inside.. they don't scuff them,.. they still have the aliminum finish ?? example the "STR" so why woudn't they also make an edge or a scuff on the inside ? another example would be endyn's carbon fiber manifold or even, wilson's manifolds.. all examples seen are fully polished or damn near close...

look at the endyn's site.. it's not a corse finish...

http://www.theoldone.com

under 2l buildup.. he's worked one himself on a race motor.

i'm just learning but it makes good arguments

-H

 

TOO never posted any pictures of the internals of his manifold. He's not done with the design, and until such time that he's selling it you'll never see the internals of the manifold itself. So I don't know how you got the privledged information to see the finished product. For what it's worth all the Endyn ported manifolds are still rough though the runners. To compare they're only a bit smoother than stock. Nothing near a polished finish.

You answered your own question. The air takes the path of lowest resistance toward the vacuum of the cylinder which will leave gaps along the walls. Almost every single sheet metal manifold is a turbo application if you haven't noticed. The reason why they can do that is because the pressurized air is turbulent enough with the boost pressure filling any gaps in the air to atomize the fuel just as well. The N/A manifolds (short of $30k is in the motor) are all castings and do fine due to the casting flash which is good enough.

As per header design, the high end headers are taking the "D" shape ports to keep the pressure up and the velocity high. As with the intake manifold you want to keep velocity as high as you can w/o restricting flow.