I drive a FF layout car (an ITR). I would like to learn the basics of track driving (reading/setting up the lines, braking points, & etc.)

In order for me to improve my driving skills, should I keep doing HPDE in my car or should I learn the basics at a dedicated driving school (i.e. Panoz, Skip Barber, etc.)

I ask this question, 'cuz I was reading a driving techniques book by Carroll Smith and he suggest that every driver should start out with an open-wheel race car to learn the fundamental of driving. Then, drive whatever car that they want.

Any thought in this matter? I know it's a very open ended question, but I want to start "right" the first time. I will never race competitively, but I want to be able to have fun, have control of the car on the track under all possible circumstances. Thanks.

-Sean

 

The commercial driver schools are pricey. If you keep you car stock, you can get A LOT of track time with the local HPDE scene for the same money. Here in the South East, there are many $200 weekends at TGP, CMP, and RR.

While I have never been to a Panoz/Barber/et al school, I think HPDE is better way to go. You can learn in your car and get much more seat time for the dollar. In the end it is only seat time that will make you a better driver.

SPiFF, who did lots of events his first year when the car was bone stock, now that he has a race car, he doesn't have enough money to drive it.

 

Where's Shultz...

I think that if you have the disposable income to do a professional school, then by all means *do* it.

If you are autocrossing, everyone will tell you to spend the $200-300 on an Evolution School (professional), so I don't see why the suggestion wouldn't be the same for track driving.

It's quite possible to go to a HPDE event and have an instructor that has only a little bit more experience than yourself. You also only get instruction for 5-8 short sessions in a weekend, whereas a professional school will be instruction 100% of the time. For what it's worth, you can go to Panoz or Barber and leave with an SCCA competition license, you can't do that at any HPDE events.

Just my 2 cents... I paid for a professional autocross school and it was about 10X what the local club charges for their school, It was worth it. I don't see why a track school that costs 10X ($2500-5000) a normal HPDE wouldn't provide the same advantages.

A lot of it also depends on what your goals are.

Scott

 

I looked at Panoz and one day driving school is $875 + $100 insurance. So, $1,000 for one day session.

When I compare to ChinMotorsports HPDE ($300 + $50 instructor + $50 hotel + $200 for various wear item on my car {pads, rotors, fluid, tires, etc.} = $600), the price difference is still big but not as big as I thought it would be.

I guess Schulz have doen professional driving schools before (I've heard his an excellent driver/racer), so I'll wait to hear his response. Any other feedbacks would be greatly appreciated as well. Thank you!

-Sean

 

i did the skip barber series (1 day, 2 day, and 5 day), great schools, i learned a lot, but very expensive. the HPDE's are a much, much better value for the seat time, and you're learning with your car.

my .02

-Scott

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Cosworth &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I ask this question, 'cuz I was reading a driving techniques book by Carroll Smith and he suggest that every driver should start out with an open-wheel race car to learn the fundamental of driving. Then, drive whatever car that they want.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
That is interesting. I have read that the principles of a formula car do not directly translate to a production-based car, and that if you intend to race that type, you should stick only with that type. I am paraphrasing, of course, but that is from a book by Phil Hill, "sportscar and performance driving" (I think, it's been a while) Odd that you can get a direct contradiction to anything if you look around. &lt;shrugs&gt;

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by madhatter &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have read that the principles of a formula car do not directly translate to a production-based car, and that if you intend to race that type, you should stick only with that type. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Carroll Smith preaches the exact opposite. Drive formula cars and you will be able to drive anything.

Coincidentally, RJ and I were just talking about this last night. I was looking at pricing for skippy schools, and wondering if a 3 day racing school for $3000 would be as good as 10 HPDEs. (or say...7 if you factor in consumables)

I think what it comes down to, is that the skippy school would be a very worthwhile investment in addition to regular HPDE attendance.
As usual, racing bends you over and steals all your money.

Skip also has a $550 open lapping with full data aquisition. Not a bad price depending on seat time. The description doesnt specify, but I assume around 2 hours of tracktime.

 

Sean, it really is all up to your budget. No question that if you can afford it, the pro schools are the way to go. These well know schools are on completely different league compared to the average local track day school. However, the better track time/dollar ratio are HPDEs. It's a question of where you want/can draw the line between the quantity and quality of track time that you want. I have not done a "pro" school yet simply because in my case the line would then have to be drawn somewhere around doing only one (maybe two) events per year.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Cosworth &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I drive a FF layout car (an ITR). I would like to learn the basics of track driving (reading/setting up the lines, braking points, & etc.)</TD></TR></TABLE>
I've done Bragg-Smith Levels I and II (school) in addition to about 10 HPDE's last year with a variety of organizations, including NASA, PDA, BMWCCA, PCA, and CarGuys.

I have to say that there is no substitute for a good school experience. I can't speak for other schools, but at Bragg-Smith, they had a comprehensive curriculum that addressed all aspects of high-performance driving (from seating position to trail braking) with a consistent well-defined approach. Their curriculum effectively combined classroom, skill "drills", and on-track driving.

For example, with heel-toe shifting, first they explained the concept and technique in the classroom. Next, they drilled us on the skill by having us drive up and down the back straight of the race course; accelerating to speed and then heel-toe downshifting down through the gears. We did this over and over again, receiving individual instruction until we got it right. Finally, when lapping, they told us exactly where to shift and what gears to use so that we could practice integrating our shifting technique into the overall activity of driving.

They used this classroom/drill/application sequence for all of the critical skills they taught, and in my opinion, it worked very well.

While I've had some excellent classroom experiences in HPDE's, and some excellent on-track instruction, I've never been to an HPDE where they set up the repetitive technical drills that allow you to isolate and refine a particular skill. This is one of the big differences between a school and an HPDE, imo.

From an overall standpoint, at school, there is a single consistent approach to driving and a uniform vocabulary used by instructors. The variety of approaches at an HPDE is equal to the number of instructors; like Forest Gump's box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get.

If you have the time and can afford a school, I would highly recommend it.

 

gjdavis & other who have attended schools:

Are the basic/advanced techniques learned from the schools (using FR layout), applicable to our FF cars?

I guess I am curious as to if the teaching materials can be transferred over to various car platforms. Bragg-Smith uses SS & C5 Corvette. Panoz uses open wheel, Viper and etc. TIA!

 

If you plan to do a professional school (Barber, Bondurant, etc) plan to do a multi-day event. I know drivers who have done the single day schools are were mildly disappointed - not with the instruction, but with the caliber of the other drivers - there were too many guys who got the school as a xmas or bday present and weren't really there to learn. I have not heard the same complaint about the multiday events (likely because they are not cheap).

 

im planning on hitting up the august and sept HPDE at VIR and CMP. not bad for about $500 total. i just want to learn and have fun

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Cosworth &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">gjdavis & other who have attended schools:

Are the basic/advanced techniques learned from the schools (using FR layout), applicable to our FF cars?

I guess I am curious as to if the teaching materials can be transferred over to various car platforms. Bragg-Smith uses SS & C5 Corvette. Panoz uses open wheel, Viper and etc. TIA!</TD></TR></TABLE>
In my opinion, the techniques that I learned are completely relevant to either FF or FR cars. Granted, a C5 Corvette is very different from a DC2 Integra in many ways (not just FF vs FR)! In driving one or the other, one has to make adjustments to go fast. But you still use the techniques. Absolutely.

A few examples:

- Seating position
- Hand position
- Basic braking technique
- Skid correction
- "Visual Scanning" (their term for keeping your eyes up and focusing down course)
- Heel-toe downshifting
- Trail braking
- Finding the best line
- Proper turn in, apex, and exit
- Balancing the car through transitions

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Cosworth &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I looked at Panoz and one day driving school is $875 + $100 insurance. So, $1,000 for one day session.

When I compare to ChinMotorsports HPDE ($300 + $50 instructor + $50 hotel + $200 for various wear item on my car {pads, rotors, fluid, tires, etc.} = $600), the price difference is still big but not as big as I thought it would be.

-Sean</TD></TR></TABLE>

Here is my point of view. You probably get more knowledge from more experienced drivers at a real school like Panoz. You do get to learn YOUR car at an HPDE however.


Oh, one more thing. FYI, the $300 for Chin events already includes the $50 instructor fee. It is $250 without instructor once you are solo.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 SOHC VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Here is my point of view. You probably get more knowledge from more experienced drivers at a real school like Panoz. You do get to learn YOUR car at an HPDE however.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yep. And you get to wad up YOUR car instead of someone else's should the lesson "not take" right away...

Added bonus of the pro schools is that they provide the car and insurance too.

 

Chin runs a great school. I have run about 8 events with them and I feel like I have learned TONS since I started. The instructors are great, and its a helluva deal! I would suggest putting the 1k into a few chin events... lets see I think you can run your street tires for the first few events, if you already have Azenis, then you are set, $150 pads (unless rotors are FUBAR'ed, you should be fine for first event, $20 oil change, $50 hotel (I am going to try to head to to Moroso event June 26th, maybe we could split a room,) thats pretty much it for your first event. You can now run 2 or 3 events with the money thats left...and thats 15 hours of seat time!! You actually get 5 hours of seat time per day at Chin events, no ****! I think the instruction may be better at a professional school, but how can you match 15 hours of seat time?!?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by siisgood00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... how can you match 15 hours of seat time?!?</TD></TR></TABLE>
3 hours of race time???

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by madhatter &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Yep. And you get to wad up YOUR car instead of someone else's should the lesson "not take" right away...

Added bonus of the pro schools is that they provide the car and insurance too.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh, I am not arguing you couldn't screw up your car. I am just saying, when you walk away from an HPDE you have a better understanding on how to drive the car you drive all the time. VS a driving school you learn a car you may never drive again. However, I am sure the concepts behind everything apply to both.

 

I think HPDE's are great to learn your car but as i get older and more involved in this addictive sport i probably will do a professional Barber/Bondurant school after a few more years. I don't see anything wrong with having competition license (at least regionally). I would like to get more competitive once i get on my own two feet. Right now HPDE is the way to go since i don't have all the cash

mike

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phat-S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
3 hours of race time???</TD></TR></TABLE>

uhhh, ok that will do

 

The thing that I wonder about classroom instruction is that...isn't that just stuff that you could read in a book and have a firm grasp of (provided you have a good instructional book)? It seems like somewhat of a waste of time sitting there and hearing what you've read and fully understand from books.

It seems to me (and I'm probably wrong) that the only advantages of going to a professional school are that you aren't going to crash your own car and the caliber of instruction is better. Does the classroom instruction really add that much to it?

 

Here is my input. Take it for what it's worth:

I'm on the plan doing HDPEs, currently in my second summer. They are really cheap practice time. My idea is to get as far as I can with HDPEs before doing a driving school: that way I've got all the basics down and can concentrate on the advanced stuff. If you're paying a few grand, you'd best be learning the advanced stuff and not heel & toe. Later this summer I was thinking of attending a Bridgestone school to take it to the next level, with hopes of getting my license next year.

Gary Sheehan (USTCC) was kind enough to give me some pointers. One was the Bridgestone School. The other was to get experience with a RWD'er. In his opinion, FWDs limit the skills of the driver. The race schools are a great place to get to drive cars that must be balanced on a knife-edge, and that's where you learn to be a "true" driver.

 

can you give us more info on the Bridgestone school?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by archmanrsx3 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Here is my input. Take it for what it's worth:

I'm on the plan doing HDPEs, currently in my second summer. They are really cheap practice time. My idea is to get as far as I can with HDPEs before doing a driving school: that way I've got all the basics down and can concentrate on the advanced stuff. If you're paying a few grand, you'd best be learning the advanced stuff and not heel & toe.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

So, do these (or some of these) driving schools let you start at different levels depending on your experience instead of putting everyone in that cohort through the same thing with a specific schedule for the time you spend there?

 

I have done the Panoz at Sebring, Russell at Sears Point and Daly at LVMS. Of those, Daly was by far the best learning situation for me as it had open wheels with great balance and response, smaller class groups, more sessions and data acquisition (really good for feedback).

You can't beat the HPDE for seat time for the dollar so a good plan would be to put several solid HDPEs under your belt so you are comfortable with being on track, using the whole track and pushing yourself and the car. If after you get pretty comfortable in the environment you can afford to pop for a three day deal, do it. A one day is just a sample and not much other than "Wow! this is cool. I want to do it more." Do a pro school to step to a new level then go back to HDPEs if you like to further hone what you learned.

The Panoz was done in their closed wheel, woofy Esperante coupe. Other than the V8 NASCAR/Monster Truck loud factor of the Panoz, the open wheel cars were a much better learning environment IMO. The open cars have a better balance and you can get more quickly to driver improvement. In the open car, especially Daly, I felt that I was learning to be a better driver where as in the Panoz cars I was just learning to drive their quirky car better even though I really doubt I will ever be in one again.

Also each school has an insurance program and there are levels and limits to your finincial responsibility if you hurt their car. Read each fine print as some kick in early, come cover high dollar stuff, etc. I thought the financial risk with the Panoz was very high plus the car itself is much easier to rack up a big bill faster than the open cars and had a higher end cost if you write it off. One Panoz driver in a group simultaneous to mine didn't buy the insurance and layed the 'glass bodied car into a barrier and owed over $20K on his credit card before the day was done. I had the closest I have ever had to real accident damage there too and it would have been super expensive to the point that I was really rattled most of the day. That morning the car was just evil and I just couldn't connect right with it and establish a feel. Seems that someone overnight had racked the brake bias to the full front and it would lock the fronts with little notice and head for walls. Since I have no experience with bias adjusters, I thought it was just me. Even if someone else screwed with my car, I would have owed the money because I was driving. I came about 2 ft. from a second mortgage. Motorsports is all about balance and that would have been way out of balance.