I can't get rid of the spongy brake pedal. I changed to SS lines and emptied the MC. Then, I filled the MC with new fluid and bled LF, RF, RR, LR. The pedal felt good when the car was off, but when I started the engine, it turned very spongy.

So I decided to bleed the mc on the car (using a bench bleeding kit) and watched a few little air bubbles come out. Next, I re-bled the 4 corners. The pedal felt firm when the car was off, but again, when I started the engine the pedal was spongy.

I've heard rumors that abs cars must be running during bleeding, but some say that's just a myth. I do notice that when I'm bleeding the calipers, I can hear "squishy" noises coming from the lines around the abs unit.

I broke down and bought a Mitivac, but it doesn't seem to do a very good job. It's almost like the tube is too large in diameter to draw a steady stream of brake fluid. Can someone tell me what I need to do to firm up the brakes?

Edit: I started bleeding at the LF, and went clockwise. I mixed up the order in my original post.


[Modified by Batoutahell, 6:32 PM 4/4/2003]

 

Not sure, but my Helms says to bleed Left Front, Right Front, Right Rear, Left Rear. I did mine with the car off. The brake pedal is supposed to go down a little when you start the car. Mine were a bit spongy after I flushed the MC. I thought I got all the air out, but I re-bled anyway to make sure. Feels a lot better now!
Does your brake pedal go to the floor while your braking (engine running)?
If not, make sure you dont have any leaks. Make sure your brake lines are all secured. I would suggest to try bleeding some more.

Maybe you need to adjust your pushrod?

 

Oops, I mixed up the order of bleeding in my post. I started at LF and went clockwise like Helms says. My pedal does go to the floor when I brake with the engine running. I've checked for leaks and found none. So far, I've gone through 1.25 liters of fluid, which is more than I had expected.

 

ack if the pedal does goto the floor with the engine running, you may need a new brake MC.
if the engine is off, and you pump the brakes, does it stiffen up to the point where it barely moves?

 

Ok here we go, try this, A. Find Friend B. Sit friend in drivers seat C. have friend press brakes 5 times and hold down after 5th time, then open brake bleeder D. Tighten up brake bleeder so it is closed, repeat steps C and D 3 to 4 times per brake until car is completed, MAKE SURE BRAKE PEDAL IS ALL THE WAY DOWN AND HELD DOWN EACH TIME YOU BLEED THE BRAKES.

 

98R: yes when the engine is off, the pedal stiffens up after a few pumps.

AresB16A2Turbo: Except for a few tries with the mitivac, the procedure you described is exactly how I do it. Well, except I don't push the pedal all the way down; I place a piece of wood on the floor under the pedal. Any other suggestions?

 

????????????????????? I have heard that you do not want to push the pedal all the way down during bleeding as it can ruin your MC.

 

ttt

 

Please post if you figure it out. I haven't been 100% happy with my brakes since switching to SS lines, either. I have almost the same symptoms as you, but it doesn't go quite all the way to the floor.

 

This is true. A piece of wood suffices to prevent this, or putting it to the floor without loads of pressure.. chances are MC failure are fairly slim but I had to change Neo's MC at a bseries.net meet after he bled the brakes and killed the MC

 

This is the way I did my brakes, and is what my helms said to do. It worked for me and got rid of all the squishy break feel I had.

 

I think the chances of MC failure are pretty slim if you push the pedal to the floor while bleeding. It is almost impossible to squeeze all of the air from in the lines without the brake being on the floor. I witnessed a more than a few friends bleed their ITR's this way and the brake pedal felt great and worked like a charm afterward.

The only thing they did differently was pumping SLOWLY all the way to the floor and SLOWLY back up. Not quick pumps in succession. I think the quick brake pumps to the floor could possibly damage the MC.

 

Well, problem not solved yet. We reinstalled the stock front calipers and stock brake lines to make sure none of the new hardware was defective, and the pedal is still mushy. I'm really starting to think it's a bad MC.

Any more suggestions before I'm off to Acura in the morning?

 

Questions:
1. Did you let all the fluid drian out from the MC reservoir? Then, refilled it?

2. What is a multivac? A "speed bleeder" type w/ an electric pump?

I ask the questions, 'cuz you shouldn't have let the fluid drain out all the way. That would mess up the seals, AFAIK.

Also, did you make sure that there were always enough brake fluid in the reservoir while you were bleeding the fluid through the bleeder nipple? Maybe you accidentally sucked in air in the lines (due to low fluid level).

To make it firm, this is what I would do. Just like another dude mentioned, grab a friend, spend 2 hours bleeding the fluid the old fashioned way. But, DO NOT let the pedal go all the way down to the floor. That will force the crap/sediments in the M/C to get pushed into the seals & mess up the seal -> M/C failure. Use a piece of wood under the brake pedal and go down only 3/4 way when pumping the brake. Lastly, go through ~3 bottle of genuine Honda brake fluid and do a complete flush. Oh, tap the calipers & brake lines to get rid of any air bubbles in the system.

 

If your just trying to get the air out, what i have been told by Acura is to bleed from the rear forward.

 

1. I emptied almost all the fluid (I used a turkey baster to suck the old fluid out) then I refilled it.
2. A mitivac is a hand-held pump that attached to the bleed screw and uses vacuum to pull fluid (the reverse of pumping the pedal. I only used the mitivac a little bit.
3. I always kept an eye on the fluid level.
4. Jeff and I bled another 1.5 liters of new fluid last night the old fashioned way. We always had a piece of wood under the pedal to prevent MC damage.

Thanks for your help, please keep the suggestions coming. For now, I'm going to see if Acura can diagnose.

 

Be careful with the Acura dealer, i got my SS lines installed by them and they did not bleed my system, i had to do that my self. I'm doing it again this weekend.

my order was RR,RL,FR,FL

 

Well I left the car with Acura. They'll take a look at the brakes Monday. I gave them a hint to start looking at the MC everything else in the braking system seems to be in order. I hope Acura comes through for me this time.

BTW, today is my car's 3rd anniversary.

 

May be a little late but when I do my brakes I pump the pedal like 20-30 times with the car off to release the pressure in the ABS system.

I remember a tech telling me this is is pretty much standard when bleeding an ABS system.

 

Look at page 19-15 of your Helms manual for some diagnostic tests for your brake booster and MC. After being really hard on my brakes(stock pads w/SuperBlue fluid) at VIR, my pedal felt really spongy and brake performance sucked. A couple of weeks back, I tossed my SpeedBleeders away and did a complete flush. The sponginess is somewhat gone but not completely because I think I need to replace my stock brake pads as well.

I thought I had ruined my MC as well because I THOUGHT that my pedal was going ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE FLOOR. It wasn't going down to floor in instances of where I was just standing on the brake pedal with normal pressure at say, a stoplight. It was going down only when I would give it increasing pressure trying to see how far it would go down. It never went 'all the way down to the floor' like the clutch pedal does. There's some sort of stopper that it hits at the end of its travel and it's not the floor. I met up with a fellow H-T member and ITR owner and he has the same sort of stopper that determines the end of his brake pedal travel. I also tested the brake pedal on my friend's LS with the same results.

I would strongly suggest you meet up with someone with an ITR equipped with stock brakes and determine if there is truly something wrong with your brakes. HTH

EDIT - mikehonda (Yoshi234's personal honda-tech) said that there's nothing wrong with pushing the pedal all the way to the floor when bleeding the brakes just as long as you're being gentle with the whole process. Even the Helms doesn't mention anything about stopping your brake pedal before hitting the floor. For what it's worth, the first time I bled my brakes, I pressed the pedal all the way to the floor and my MC is still ok.


[Modified by CPR, 3:36 PM 4/5/2003]

 

Yeah it's kind of a grey area, how far to push the pedal when bleeding. I didn't know there's a stopped on our brake pedal, but that's good to know. Jeff and I periodically took breaks from bleeding my car to sit in his R and feel his brake pedal for a comparison. His felt like a rock, whereas mine was very spongy. I don't get any stopping power on the street until the pedal is almost on the floor, but at that level, it does stop the car pretty well.

I'm sure my pedal is sinking much more than before because it sinks so much now that I can't heel/toe at all. I'm hoping Acura has good news for me Monday morning when they take a look at it. If the MC is leaking, at least it should be under warranty. I just hope the problem gets fixed before I leave for the expo.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Batoutahell &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I can't get rid of the spongy brake pedal. I changed to SS lines and emptied the MC. Then, I filled the MC with new fluid and bled LF, RF, RR, LR. The pedal felt good when the car was off, but when I started the engine, it turned very spongy.
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I just went through this WHOLE mess last night. I spent hours w/ 2 firends going nuts over why the brake system acted the way it did. New SS lines, and new fluid using a pressurized system (in) to allow the users to crack + bleed out the old fluid. We watched all the old fluid leave the car, and only the ATE superblue is left in the system. However after starting the car, or after you turn it off (first push) I have that "wheeeeeeze" line near the ABS unit. Could air get trapped in the unit itself? I'm going nuts... we tried bleeding 2 different patters (traditional and honda) and also using pressurized + traditional pump + squeeze + hold methods.

I'd be hard pressed to think my m/c is hosed after 40k miles... itsa 98 ITR
Let me know what Acura says about your brakes... I'm really curious. I dont want to blow through another 1 or 2 cans of this crap to get all the air out

 

On the earlier 3rd gen Tegs, the ABS system is separate from the normal braking system (each system is bled separately) and you also bleed the normal brakes in a cross pattern (LF, RR, RF, LR). Are the later Tegs different?

 

I've done several of my on honda's and always bleed in the order of RR,RL,FR,FL or furthest to closest. I usually go around 3-4 times to make sure all the air is out. I have a friend pumping about 3-4 times then release the fluid (do this at each corner 4 times), making sure pedal never goes all the way to the floor. I've done this on my integra twice (once when the MC went bad and once when the brakes were upgraded) and my civic once when brakes were upgraded. Never had any problems.

My MC did go bad in my integra gs-r at about 55K. When it went bad though it was a gradual thing, it wasn't like one day I had no pedal pressure.

 

Pressure Bleeding (as well as Vacuum Bleeding) the system does away with the need to "pump" the brake pedal and eliminates the chance of bottoming to Master Cylinder piston in the bore. Snap-On, Motive and others make some nice pressure bleeders. A cheaper alternative is the EeziBleed at http://www.rdent.com/pages/tools.html that I've used.

These systems work by pressurizing fresh brake fluid into the reservoir of the Master Cylinder. It is then a simple process to go to each wheel (I've always done farthest to closest) to flush and / or bleed the system. I just did mine (without the assistance of a helper) in about an hour. The pedal feels much stronger now.

The key issue with any of the above listed systems is to get a good seal around the top of the Master Cylinder reservoir. The EeziBleed is nice but failed to have an adequate cap for the ITR. I ended up making my own "cap" via ½ inch aluminum plate stock / rubber gasket material and fashioning tie downs around the bottom of the Master Cylinder reservoir. This is a system similar to the Snap-On model.



Modified by TypeRTexan at 9:23 PM 4/14/2003