another AEM vs. Unorthodox Racing debate..? kinda... i just thought about something... why not just get the Unorthodox Racing Ultra Accessory pulleys..?

1. AEM Tru Power pulleys
*CNC-machined from 6061-T6 billet aluminum
*manufactured and assembled in the USA
*guarantee their pulleys' belt tooth profiles to match O.E. specifications
*available in anodized red, blue, or silver

Unorthodox Racing Ultra Accessory pulleys
*CNC-machined from lightweight 6061-T6 aluminum billet
*tolerances for each accessory pulley is held to within .001"
*numerous machining steps are taken to ensure the pulleys are the lightest possible design
*available in natural polished aluminum as well as black, red, and blue anodizing

2. AEM Tru Power pulleys
*increase power by reducing rotating weight and are slightly oversized to maximize efficiency
*no need to remove the torsional vibration damper or emission control devices

Unorthodox Racing Ultra Accessory pulleys=
*power gains are obtained through weight loss (15% to 30%)
*does not underdrive with our accessory pulleys (most applications) because underdriving is done with the Ultra Street "crank pulleys" and not much horsepower is gained from extreme underdriving

3. AEM Tru Power pulleys
*slightly oversized = replacement belts are included in every kit

Unorthodox Racing Ultra Accessory pulleys
*pulleys are the same diameter as the stock units

4. AEM Tru Power pulleys
*List price $228.16 (1994 - 02 Accord 4Cyl.)

Unorthodox Racing Ultra Accessory pulleys
*6-Rib Alternator List price $95.00 (1994 - 02 Accord 4Cyl.)
*4-Rib Power Steering List price $95.00 (1994 - 02 Accord 4Cyl.)

5. AEM Tru Power pulleys
*Alternator: OEM= 12.5 oz, AEM= ? oz (1994 - 02 Accord 4Cyl.)
*Power: OEM= 1 lb 2 oz, AEM= ? oz (1994 - 02 Accord 4Cyl.)

Unorthodox Racing Ultra Accessory pulleys
*Alternator: OEM= 12.5 oz, UR= 4 oz (1994 - 02 Accord 4Cyl.)
*Power: OEM= 1 lb 2 oz, UR= 7 oz (1994 - 02 Accord 4Cyl.)

to sum it all up, both the AEM Tru Power pulleys and the Unorthodox Racing Ultra Accessory pulleys are made of high quality stuff and procedures... UR has the extra color (black) and personally, i think their natural polished aluminum looks better than AEM's silver... the AEM kit includes both power steering and alternator pulleys... they're lighter than stock and they're slightly oversized... that's why high performance custom-fitted belts are also included... no crank pulley is included because they say "removing the torsional vibration damper has been proven to be highly detrimental to the engine..." also, i hear that some people complain about AEM's underdriving sometimes-(headlights, audio system, etc)... now if you were to get the Unorthodox Racing Ultra Street Set pulleys, you would have the underdriving crank pulley that some people say messes up your motor... you would also need new belts [1994-01 2.2/2.3L Gates K060408 and 1990-01 Gates K040410 (alt. K040395)]... however, if you get the Unorthodox Racing Ultra Accessory pulleys, you don't take the risk of messing up your engine 'cause the crank pulley isn't included... also, you don't need new belts and there isn't any underdriving 'cause the UR accessory pulleys are the same size as stock but they're lighter... the pricing may vary though so that doensn't really count... you might find the AEMs today on Ebay but you might find the URs tomorrow on Group Buy Center... then you'll find the AEMs on The Parts Trader next week and so on... i just thought it was interesting to compare both retail prices... AEM's $228.16 vs. UR's $190.00... now if someone were to weigh the AEM Tru Power pulleys, that would be really interesting... i'm assuming they're slightly heavier than the URs 'cause the AEMs are "slightly oversized..." anyway, with the AEM Tru Power pulleys vs. Unorthodox Racing (Ultra Street Set) pulleys debate going on, i thought it might be a better idea to get the Unorthodox Racing Ultra Accessory pulleys instead... i'm wondering if the Unorthodox Racing Ultra Accessory pulleys make less power than the AEMs 'cause the UR accessory pulleys rely on weight loss only while the AEMs reduce rotating weight and underdrive the accessories... what do you guys think..?


[Modified by accordexchange, 4:33 AM 4/4/2003]

 

I have weighed my AEM accessories pulleys. Here it goes: PS pulley: 240grams (sorry no conversions), Alternator pulley: 80grams.

As far as my impressions goes, If the UR pulleys are not underdrived, just lightened, what's the point of spending that much money for them. The power gains, already truly minimal, will go through underdriving only. You don't take enough weight away for it to reflect on inertia, IMO.

I agree with your statement about the crank underdrive pulley. The risks related to this particular part is just way too high for the power it yields. Especially if you have an engine that pings or detonates a little due to sloppy tuning or dirty chambers, there will be too many vibrations on the crank, it'l break in a hurry.

Wish I could link you to athread about this dating back to October, but it's archived.

 

AEM Tru Power pulleys
*Alternator: OEM= 12.5 oz, AEM= 2.8219 oz (1994 - 02 Accord 4Cyl.) 80grams
*Power: OEM= 1 lb 2 oz, AEM= 8.4657 oz (1994 - 02 Accord 4Cyl.) 240 grams

i think i calculated it right... but that's odd though... the AEM alternator pulley is lighter than the UR one... i see your point on the minimal gains with just lightened pulleys with no underdrive... i guess i thought in most cases that if it's lighter, it's usually better so that's a good thing...


[Modified by accordexchange, 6:06 AM 4/4/2003]

 

Something that I noticed from experience is that there is a profound difference in weight and diameter of a stock crank pulley and a UR.

If I ever decide to screw with pulleys again I would go AEM. Its nice that they include the belts.


[Modified by 3700 Vtec, 11:41 AM 4/4/2003]

 

for aroudn 165 shipped, id rather go with the AEM and get the belts...

would you have to order differently for ppl with h22/h23's?

 

I don't think so. If I remember correctly, the accessories and belts remain the same.

 

3700 Vtec, that was one of the points that i was trying to make... i think the UR accessory pulley set uses your stock belts since they are the same size as stock... so IF ever need to replace you belts, you'd have to order them from AEM i guess... but with the UR A kit, you could go to Honda or your local car parts store...

KTeller8, the UR A set can be had for around $170 shipped... not much price difference but then again, depends on who you get it from... the reason why the UR SS set is more expensive than AEM is 'cause the SS kit includes the crank pulley...

 

yes they have a pack set and also seperate items

they have two crank ones if i remember right, there is one with the accessory pulley on it and one that is just crank. know how the pully has like a smaller pulley on it for another belt? this would elimanate that little pully.

 

Nah, I don't think these belts are so specific. Actually, AEM buys them somewhere. There are belt sizes available at auto parts stores for just about any applications. Just bring back the belt and with the dimensions written on it they will find you the corresponding belt.

 

I'm confussed. When I got my UR crank pulley I got new belts, I suppose you could use the stock ones, though I don't think they would be tight enough since the UR pulley is so much smaller in diameter.

If you just mean acessory pulleys and not the crank, the I guess the stock belts will work on the UR pulleys(- crank pulley), though not the AEM because their cutting diameter at the alt and ac pulleys.

 

$228 for aem??? Where you getting ripped off at? I can get them for like 128!!

 

I've had the AEM's for nearly 2 years now and about 25k mile have no complaints. My charging system and original battery are doing just fine . They are quality and perform as I expected (minimal dimming at idle with lights on and slightly greater voltage drop with A/C, lights, etc. on).

The belts included are Bando, a good quality belt by my standards. I also don't see why replacing the crank pulley will cause any sort of problem with the engine internals. Our crank pulleys don't have any sort of dampener (besides the fact that they weigh a ton). Switching to a lighter pulley would be like changing the engine flywheel except that it wouldn't be as dramatic a difference (about 4 lb savings and a smaller moment of inertia than vs. the flywheel which can save 10 lb and affects the moment more); they are just on opposite sides of the crankshaft.

I'm actually considering buying the UR set that includes all three pulleys because I can get the crank pulley with it.

 

he said retail

please read what is stated!

 

i am looking into that also, since i sell them
and the flywheel point is very well put..

 

KTeller8,
Ultra S= crank pulley
Ultra SS= crank, alternator, power steering
Ultra A= alternator, power steering
Ultra R= crank pulley (drives only alternator, no A/C and P/S)

3700 Vtec, i think you got the UR Ultra SS kit... my idea was to get the Ultra A kit... "Since our Ultra Accessory pulleys are the same diameter as the stock units, you may install an Ultra Street lightened underdrive crank pulley as a first step. Then, at a later date, you may purchase our Ultra Accessories and install them without having to change belts again (on most models, otherwise the belt part number is included in the instructions)."

AccordCoupe, i'm with you but all this engine wear/damage talk makes me reluctant... i swear-one day i'll just say **** it and get the Ultra SS kit, dyno it, and check for wear/damage at some point...

 

Well actually he said list. So sorry, but retail price for me is still like 180!!!

 

accord91h22, list, MSRP, retail, whatever you want to call it...

i also posted this in the Tech forum... here's sackdz's feedback...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
what do you guys think..?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think you just wasted a whole bunch of your time. I can't believe you just wrote all that **** about somthing so trivial.

I found this part to be particularly funny:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
high performance custom-fitted belts are also included
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

High performance custom-fitted belts eh?

Please explain to everyone why the Bando belts included with the AEM pulley kit which you can buy at your local parts store are "custom fitted" or "high performance" when the size and type is also made by Gates, Dayco, Goodyear etc, and is nothing but a goddamn rubber belt.

Next, you have

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
removing the torsional vibration damper has been proven to be highly detrimental to the engine...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's about the exaggeration of the month right there. Some people claim to have had problems due to the claimed lesser of torsional vibration dampening of the UR crank pulley vs. stock. But a lot of people like find somthing to blame when they have problems. Many people with highly built, high revving Honda motors are doing just fine with the UR pulley. Personally I don't know if the stories hold water or not, but if I were ever to put one on my motor I'd have the whole rotating assy balanced which makes the point moot (a properly balanced UR pulley isn't going to be "detrimental" whatsoever)

You seem to have the misconception that the weight of the pulley itself is where the majority of the power is made. (As a side note, I prefer to refer to the power as being "freed up") While the weight of the pulley is indeed rotating mass, it is in my estimation only 10-15% of the improvement. Remember that the torque required to turn the alternator and power steering pumps is far greater then the torque required to turn the pulley itself. The higher ratio pulleys cause pump and alternator to turn less per revolution of the crank and that is where most of the power is made.

At any rate, it's not much power at all. There are better things that $200 can be spent on, but they're certainly not worthless. I use the AEM alternator pulley and have removed my power steering altogether.

I did not realize the UR acc drive pullies were the same diameter as stock. If this is so, there is no contest, AEM is the way to go. The mass saved from the UR pulleys is pretty much negligable and I doubt you would see any more than a hp or ft. lb. on the dyno.

On the undedrive issue, I haven't ever heard anyone complain that the reduced power assist of the steering rack was a problem, so I'll leave that at that.

As for the alternator, yes you will notice a difference, and your headlights can dim at idle by underdriving the alternator. Honestly, I don't think it's that bad, and it never bothers me.

I applaud you for your thorough research and organization, but I think you're stressing a bit much over a couple horsepower. I'm sure I came across as a dick, but I'm in that kinda mood and hey, you asked what I thought.

 

I took off the UR Ultra S becuase I noticed problems with the revs. I think it was due to the belts. It's like it had to catch up from 2000rpm to 3000rpm. It runs fine now that the stock pulley and belts are back on.

The gains weren't that great, though if I ever boost, then maby it might be worth putting it back on.

 

People with high hp motors have them balanced with the crank pulley and flywheel. If you go too light you WILL have problems. Trust me my buddy just went through this with his gsr.

 

Honda's have balanced crank shafts, there shouldn't be a problem from changing the weight of flywheel or crank pulley.

 

I thought you couldnt go too light with the flywheel either? Well my buddies prob was his rods and pistons wieghed 30grams less than the factory ones a piece. It totally fucked him over. Locked a piston on the wrist pin. Wasting one of his new srp pistons! I thought there could be problems when you go too light with the flywheel and crank pulley.

 

i guess that doesn't apply to rods and pistons...

 

I don't think AEM or UR would state as a disclaimer that lightening the crank pulley or cam pulley is determental to engine longevity if it weren't backed up by some sort of facts.

All I know is that Honda's cranks and cams are balanced assemblies. If you lighten one end of the assembly it's obviously no longer balenced.

While at idle and normal driving conditions this wear isn't very relavent at higher RPMs when the crank and cam is under more strain it will enter it's harmonic range and begin to litterally (sonicly) shake itself apart, damaging bearings, crank, cam the whole nine yards.

Don't get me wrong it's not like I'm not using an AEM Tru-Tyme cam gear or about to install my lightened flywheel and pulleys because I am. I'm just saying the wear is real and the shorter engine life span is true. But then again used engines are getting cheaper and swaping them out is no big thing so I'm cool with putting my engine to it's limits.

If you're not breakin you're not racing :D

 

I don't buy it. Those parts (crank, crank pulley, flywheel) are ballanced with regard to inertia, just like a tire/wheel on your car. Changing the weight on the crank pulley or flywheel should make no difference. Think about all of the load each of these are connected to (i.e. the mass of the drivetrain and then your car). These parts in themselvs should cause no harm.

Another point to ponder. Neither of these mods will actually increase power, they increase "percieved" horsepower by reducing the mass that must be accelerated. Your performance increase will decrease as you shift down in gear ratio.

 

Please give this some thought. You make some very good points. Let me give you some of my thoughts.

Your crank and cams are balanced for inertia for several reasons. One being Harmonic resonation. Ever seen that comercail where the guy strikes a tunning fork and a glass across the room breaks? That happens because the frequency the fork resonates is the exact frequency that shatters the glass.

Well your engine suffers from the same thing. They balance those in a way to keep the harmonics within acceptable perameters. Once you reduce the wait on one end of the assembly it now throws the rest of the assembly out of round allowing it to resonate frequencies it normally wouldn't.

Just like your tire is balanced to ride smoothly so is your crank and cam. What happens when you remove one of your wheel wieghts and the tire is no longer ballanced? You can feel it threw the whole car right? Okay now imagine that intensified 100's even 1000's of times threw your engines moving parts. You mean to tell me that isn't going to cause any damage???

I have extensive experiance in pushing engines into there harmonic limits and learned about it once the hard way. I shattered a 650cc 1994 Sea-Doo XP engine. Don't get me wrong it halled *** but could only take so much.

Now if AEM and UR offered a Crank and Flywheel lightened in relation to each other to keep the crank in balance we would be talking a whole different story. But we're not we're talking about something that is lightened on one end to help the engine spool up faster.

It's gains are obivious when accelerating but it also causes proven damage. That's all I'm saying. Consider that you'll see it makes sense.