Just thought I'd post this interesting tidbit. I just got our insurance renewal from K&K and a new requirement is that cars without a roll bar are not allowed to use a harness on the track. I'll have to see if that applies to a parking lot autocross as well. Certainly helps add validity to our arguments that harnesses go hand in hand with a roll bar on the track.

At least with this safety point, to K&K!

 

I wonder if they have any data on people actually being injured by using a harness without rollover protection.

 

Is K&K a specialty insurance company, catering to folks like us? Never heard of them.

 

K&K does a lot of the insurance for track events.

 

For any non-SCCA event, they are really the only insurance game in town. There are a few other companies, but they are rather pricey (not that K&K is cheap, though).

http://www.kandkinsurance.com

 

I don't KNOW that K&K is still the insurer of SCCA road racing events but do know that it was for ages and ages...

Kirk

 

K&K was involved with NASCAR for many years as a sponsor of a Dodge driven by Bobby Isaac. (If my memory still serves me). They were the underwriter for SCCA and I too have no idea what happened with that. As to insurers for our cars OFF track Parrish-Heacock is an excellent source for "agreed value" coverage at very reasonable rates. K&K is excellent as well.

As to mounting a harness in a stock vehicle with reclining seat-don't do it. There is sufficient evidence out there that this is not a good idea. Remember that the harness is there for 2 reasons-one to keep you planted in the seat in an upright/reclining race situation and second in theevent you roll the car that you are not thrown around. With these things in mind I would think that K&K is correct in their position. As to an autocross-I would think that the rules may still apply from a safety viewpoint.

 

i went to a safty meeting at driving impessions in nj put on by nasa-ne and they said its ok to run harness w/o roll protection because u have more control of the car witht he harness on and when u go off at circut u usally just hit things. the odds of going over aren't that high. i thought that was kind of unnerving. i would never go on track with the harness on and no roll protection.

-spenc

 

K&K is good... I've used them in the past, but I've also had good luck with American Specialty Insurance, http://www.amerspec.com , because of one bad taste I got from K&K (long boring story) a few years ago.

Jon

 

<-------------Wonders the same thing.
In many of the videos and photos I see of Japanese cars on the track,many of them use a harness w/o rollover protection. To go even further the majority I have seen seem to be running 4 point only.

 

When I do my lapping day at Putnam PArk, we use K&K Insurance as well. SCCA left K&K in the early '90s back when I was RE for Central KY Regions, I remember the discussions of the change in under writers to a company that started with an N (sorry, I can;'t recall the name). It caused a stink as previously people could shop insurance for events but by SCCA national taking oin the N-company, everyone else had to join in if it was the cheapest or not. Not sure who they use.

I use race harnesses in my street car with a stock seat and no roll bar when I am doing open lapping or instruction. I am also driving it at a level when a roll is not likely to occur unless a catastrophic mechnical issue happened (lost wheel, etc). Certainly more protection would be better but one has a number of things to balance and stock seats and factory reel type belts would be much less secure and safe. Where you mount your shoulder belts can have a lot to do with their real value (not to the floor or rear seat belt holes).

 

I would never drive my car with a harness without roll over protection.

 

I'm a little mixed on this one. I agree that a harness w/o roll bar is dangerous if the car rolls, but I also agree that a driver is less likely to loose control in the first place if he is securely held in the seat and can use his arms only for steering inputs, not torso support!

Many track rats have figured out how to lock the stock belts with a quick yank. Even better, most newer cars have seat belt retractors that lock when all the webbing is pulled out of the spool, then fed back in. Buckle up, pull all of the webbing out, feed back in, then pull the lap portion real tight, and feed that into the spool and you're in! It will not release until you un-buckle.

 

My instructor at Road America this past summer had the same idea. He has a 911 Turbo, no rollbar, but uses a 5 point harness. I asked him about it and he said the advantages of using the harness outweigh the rollover risk. On that particular day though, I chose to use his factory seat belts instead of the passenger 5 point he had.

I sell a lot of the Schroth Rallye 4's made specifically for BMW's. I try to make all customers aware of the rollover risks if they choose to use the belts on the track. This past week I sold a set to a guy with an M5 (no rollover protection) that he he uses for the occasional track day. This guy also races wheel-to-wheel in another BMW. When I mentioned to him the rollover risks, he said he's considered that, but thinks the belts help him maintain better control of the car.

I know many on this forum say NOT to use harnesses without rollover protection on the track, and I'm one to agree with this. But, there are some experienced racers who don't agree.

And on a side note, I know there are some people who have rollover protection, use a 5-6 point harness belt, but have factory-style seats. This is also a no-no, but I don't think it gets too much "press". When using a 5-6 point belt, you really need to have a 5-6 point capable seat...wrapping the sub-strap over the end of the seat doesn't cut it.



[Modified by Brett@SoloRacer.com, 6:38 AM 4/3/2003]

 

ive seen some videos on the net that remind me why its a smart idea to have a cage with harnesses
Anyone seen the evo5 that spins 5 times in the air and lands upside down. The cage saved that guys life.
Stock seats and belts are designed to let you sink deeper into the car as it crushes, racing seats and harness are designed to keep you in place....


[Modified by Audipwr1, 4:42 PM 4/3/2003]

 

Well, I think I saw the same EVO crash and that guy asked for it!

This debate reminds me of those who refuse to wear 3 point seat belts because they are afraid of getting trapped if their car ends up in a lake! The benefit in most situations far out weighs the lake risk. Perhaps a 5 point harness helps in more situations than it hurts.

However...just for the record, see my signature.


[Modified by Track rat, 8:05 PM 4/3/2003]

 

I have a kirkey set, 5-point harness and harness bar (not a rollover bar) that I intend to use this summer in my Integra at a couple of Solo I and II events this summer. The main reason for the seat is to get low enough that I have headroom to wear a helmet and the harness to keep from sliding around. I used the stock seat at a open lapping day last summer and it wasn't fun as I was reclined right back and was far from an optimal seating position for car control purposes.

So my question is: how can I put in rollover protection on my daily driver given that I need the back seat on occasion? Can I bolt in an Autopower rollbar and remove it after an event? I didn't think they were ment for that sort of use. Does anyone else out there have this problem?

Thanks in advance,
Thomas

 

u can run an autopower rollbar with bolt in cross brace and harness bar.

-spenc

 

all I can say is tire blow out + off track can = flip. (or make up your own equation)

accidents are accidents...you usually can't control when they happen.

 

IIRC, SCCA Solo I time trial rules specifically prohibit harness bars by themselves, and require legal four-point rollbars and harnesses and fire bottles and driver gear at a minimum.

Did you mean time trials with other organizations that don't follow SCCA guidelines? If so those are not Solo I's by their proper name/meaning...

Curious,

Jon
PS- yes you can totally put an SCCA Solo I-legal four point rollbar from Autopower or Kirk Racing or your nearest fabricator, but it's a bad idea to remove it after an event and reinstall it for a later one (for many reasons, not the least of which is metal fatigue at the mounting plate points.)

Your best bet would be to get an Autopower bar with the removable center section in the main hoop (aka the diagonal brace and the horizontal harness bar bolt-out so you can get to the back seats more easily.) Any Autopower dealer can order this for you, assuming that they know what's up.

Hope that helps-

Jon

 

This is not solo 1 legal. Diagonal must be welded in, or so i was told by guy who built my rollbar.

 

Thanks RJ... that sounds like something new since I last studied a Solo rulebook (at least a couple of seasons ago) ... it used to be legal, though!

PS- Now I find it necessary to mention that any Solo I car should not be someone's daily driver... don't take anything out there that you aren't prepared to ball up and trailer home for parts... and certainly don't shortchange any of Sunday's safety items so you can put your groceries in the car on Monday... stick to Solo II (autocross) if that's your situation, IMHO...

Jon

 

I inquired about a removable diagonal but he wouldnt do it since it wasnt Solo1 legal. That was one of my stipulations when i dropped the car off.

 

CASC-OR. Canadian Automotive Sport Clubs - Ontario Region:

http://www.soloontario.com/index.htm

I did a driver's training school and a competition day a few years ago and they had no problems with a bucket seat and 5 point harness without any additional rollover protection then. A quick scan of the 2003 rules is that only convertables and cars classified as 'modified' require roll bars (rule 2.3.1).

I have also attended a couple of open lapping days organized by clubs following the CASC-OR Solo I guidelines.

Thanks, I was wondering what the downside would be to swaping in and out a bolt in bar, other than the PITA factor.

Thanks
Thomas

 

I'd have to respectfully say "Many accidents are avoidable...your usually out of control when they happen". This applies not only to your driving control but also your preparation control.