i'm looking into purchasing some cams but i don't wanna swap out my ITR valvetrain....i need all good technical info regarding toda A cams compared to ITR and skunk stage 1&2 camshafts.....

 

my friend had the toda a's in his si and they made great power all the way to 8800 rpms on itr valvetrain with no problem, i don't know how they compare to the other cams though but toda's got a good rep

 

 

interesting post

bump

 

http://www.allmotorhonda.com/techpages/camspecs.htm

if you look, these are VTEC LOBE ONLY specs @ .50
now if you go here,

http://www.todaracing.com


PRI VTEC SEC
SPEC A IN 220 (6.0) - 290 (11.6) - 240 (9.0) $460
EX 220 (5.5) - 280 (11.2) - 240 (8.5) $460

Skunk2 does not modify the PRI and SEC spec of the CTR cam profile.
TODA<< however, says F that stock crap. Skunk2 stage 1s were designed
to be direct drop ins w/o tuning. TODAs are not designed that way. The
ramp angles are different and causes the A/F ratios to stratify differently.
The secondary lobes on the SPEC As, are the size of GSR VTEC lobes...
This means that with the TODAS, you are on a VTEC sized lobe ALL THE TIME.
This requires tuning. If you wanted MAD midrange and had ITR compression
or more and had say a GSR head/IM and ITR block and still had GSR gears like
me, tuned this would mean yo would launch hard as hell and pull HARD to redline.

The disadvantage of this is the loss in dynamic compression with the later intake valve closing spec of the As on the pri/sec. On a stock compression motor, you WILL need to change the timing curve to get the most out of the As. No doubt.

The ITR cams are great, they make good midrange power and can be had cheap, alot of ITR guys sell em so they can move up. The As are the best cam herementioned and they can be ran on ITR valvesprings. They are just a bit more expensive than skunk2, you lose only about 3-4deg of overlap with them. Making your B series roar off the line and "feel" bigger under all driving scenarios makes this a great choice for the street.

Granted, having hondata will be the most gains with this setup. Not what the beginner VTEC tuner would choose for cams. I want to lift the clutch and floor my car at idle and rock to 9K but thats me...


[Modified by MikeSarr_GSR, 4:52 AM 3/31/2003]

 

How do the spec A's compare to spec B's? Would you say Hondata is a "must" for tuning the A's/B's? Did you see substantial gains with hondata? Sorry for all the Q's, just trying to learn.

 

the website I quoted has that information. basically unless you are running a strong CR, the Bs may be too big for your application. the intake valve closing spec is what you want to look for balanced with your static compression ratio. there is a direct relationship there. also the toda cams are not designed like a stock cam, they mix fuel WAY differently. Bs will give you a lopy idle unless you can microtune the car. VAFC will help, however remapping the ECU is a must. This is why you need hondata or a somewhat equivalent like PMS, PFC, AEM, etc that will give you full control of your telemetry. the gains with such systems are not tru gains, they are simply put how things should be operating. It is a gain from stock, however gains when you mod your car becomes a different machine. Tuning that machine to levels where it operates OPTIMALLY is where it should be operating.

 

thanks for the very good info. i like the website with the b-series cam spec's. but how would skunk stage 1's stack up against toda a's on a stock itr with dyno-tuned/adjusted cam gears??? which one is more worth it? power output wise?

 

do you want sick power off throttle from git to go or just at 5K and up, thats the break down shake down of it all. ITRs have nothing under VTEC. peak numbers will be slightly more with the As tuned properly since the specs on the exhaust cam are more agressive. say you have an ITR with gears, AEM CAI, JDM DC header, carsound cat, 2.25" stock catback (nonideal) with a VAFC, cams lashed and installed properly, TUNED, all fresh tune up stuff, clean air filter, oil changed etc:

dyno from a car
I tuned:
skunk2 stage 1s_________TODA As
3000:062/105
4250:095/125
5000:105/110VTEC
5252:115/115________> w/o hondata this number my be lower
6000:140/123
6500:157/127
7000:168/125
7600:180/125________> I estimate the peak #s will be 5-8whp higher
8000:177/122
8400:175/118________> I estimate they will hold power longer excam has more lift by 1mm than skunks but 5-9 degrees less duration

to see how your engine would respond to A's through the midrange, I would do this: if you have a VAFC borrow someone's GSR cams, install them and lock VTEC at 3000. look at the graph from 3000 to 6000rpm and tune. compare that to stock ITR midrange numbers. if you have no handles on your timing curve, this may be non-ideal numbers. the lobes on the As pri and sec are the roughly the size of GSR mid lobes! my point is, doing this will give you an idea of the midrange and low end to be gained on these cams. once you do that, you will get an understanding of what these cams can do. once you tie those numbers together from 1-5.5K bring in TODAs A spec midlobes... I would estimate 10-15ft/lbs more in the region from 2-3K to 5.5K tuned properly, then the mid profile should pick up where that let off.

thats my estimation the best I can give. you would need hondata to tune those cams 100% IMO. However, I do feel that the ITR's engine combination could move those pri/sec cams very well with just tuning fuel. It would be my concusion that with the right tuning the TODAs can make a larger volume of power across the powerband. In my book, thats a MUCH faster car. Paired with a long tube 4-2-1 hybrid header and 63.5mm exhaust you are in for a real treat. im not a prof tuner, however if you want to just drop in and go... you cant argue with the skunks. the only place we saw significant gains tuning them lashed to spec was from 5200-7200
to the tune of about 10-15whp in the band. This is still significant since it feels very linear for an ITR. The region fom 4500-5200 however still showed the resident DIP in power typical in the ITR/B16/K20a with the single stage manifold. it was interesting though, before we set the valves to spec they set them under the rocker arms and valve stems with factory specs. this makes the spec under the cam lobe nearly nil. set this way, the valves were slamming the seats pretty hard and I could hear it... hence my need to look at it further... however with almost no lash... the skunks LIKED IT. there is a dyno he had for his car with 124/124at 5252 on an ITR!!! the peak number was 172, peak tq was like 125-6, they set the VTEC at 4400 and it roared... they are set correctly now, and you see the spec, +8whp at peak and about 2-3ft/lbs, 5252 is 115/115 however. This tells me that the larger lift specs with the TODAs on the primary lobes will be something to see...



[Modified by MikeSarr_GSR, 4:36 PM 3/31/2003]