What do you guys think about the fueling rules at a NASA Enduro? Rules in pit lane = Driver out of car while fueling, fueler and helper in full nomex (pretty standard, right?). But, the stewards don't seem to mind if a guy drives to the pay pumps in the paddock and sits buckled in the car while his helper (not in nomex) fuels the car! No fire extinguisher at the ready either. Does this sound silly to anyone else? ...and who thinks a pumped up driver will observe the 10 mph paddock speed limit on his way back to the track?

I think this needs some clarification!

 

the chance for fuel spilling on pit lane is 100 times greater, so are temperatures, other cars running by, etc.

cars equipped properly can fuel in 1 minute with driver change, driving to the pumps are nowhere as fast, trust me, I fueled Payton Wilsons car last year at the gas pumps, done in 1:30 not including the drive down pit lane and back out

10 gallon dump cans pour at 2 gallons a second, so with a proper fuel cell you can be done in seconds

 

The Fuel Pumps are grounded, and there is less of a danger of static elecricity causeing a spark. Where pouring fuel from a Gas Can has a higher probablity of a spart starting a fire.

There person in question did proceed safely to the fuel pumps, as evey one who was racing an pulled behind the wall was watched.

Our course people flying down the pit lane on a 4 wheeler, when someone is not happy about a decision ain't exctaly safe either.

 

It was clearly stated that when a car is refueled the driver will be out of the car and the gasman and fireman will be covered in "full nomex because NASA is a conservative organization" and when driving to the pumps "you must observe a 10mph speed limit".

My pitstops averaged over 3 minutes on pitlane, but I was out of the car when the fueling took place.

Scott Fredricksen

 

People actually used the pumps? Yeesh!

IMO, the same rules should apply - driver out, fueler in full gear, extinguisher present, etc.

Of course, I'd just as soon ban using the pump. What would happen if two cars wanted to use the 98? Would they have to sprint through the paddock in an attempt to beat the other?

 

How many are using dump cans with dry break? But most are doing it with 5 gallon jugs and funnels. Our best time in pit was a 2:30 with jugs and funnels.

 

Fueling on Pit Road is way more dangerous that fueling in the paddock.. why? Becuase you have more people on pit road, cars entering and exiting the pits right? So if a car goes back to the paddock to be worked on and say they want to top off the tanks then they need ot put nomex on to fuel? Do you wear nomex and have a fireman advialbe when you fuel your car @ a gas pump?

As before it was clearly stated that you must observer the 10mph speed limit to the pumps. When cars entered the paddock they were watched until they came to a complete stop. These rules from what I understand are no differnt than any other organaztion.

 

I'll admit my speeding infraction on the ATV, no helmet either, guilty.

Sorry, but the Miata I saw cruising to and from pit was way over 10 mph!

Quote:

"I fueled Payton Wilsons car last year at the gas pumps, done in 1:30 not including the drive down pit lane and back out."

Hmmm. Ok, ad 20 - 30 sec and you nailed a 2:00 minute stop! Sounds like the pay pumps are an advantage unless you have dump cans with dry break. They'll be a long line at the pumps next year!

Not a big deal, just wanted to know if this is normal. Apparently it is. Case closed.


[Modified by Track rat, 8:17 PM 2/24/2003]

 

I am not sure if the issue is a ground. In my car's case, you have a fuel filling point directly (well pretty dagone close) above the left rear wheel (Scott F., your Miata's filler is pretty much in the same location just horizontal right?). So when we're fueling, we (well, I'll speak for me) are worried about fuel spillage hitting the rear brakes which sure as shooting are pretty hot. Personally, I don't have any desire to be in the car during fueling but that might just be my overreacting.

 

we used funnels and 5 gallon jugs and placed in front of those using dump cans, if they people who used the pumps are who theyI think they are, well they would have placed equally as well if they did have to do it on pit road

 

Whatever happens behind the pit fence NASA is not responsible for. Whatever you do back there is done at your own risk.

Hopefully that pretty much answers your question.

 

Oh so true.

 

Quote:

"Whatever happens behind the pit fence NASA is not responsible for. Whatever you do back there is done at your own risk."

???? HUH???

Ok, with that logic why is going 80mph behind the fence on an ATV with no helmet a problem?



[Modified by Track rat, 8:27 PM 2/24/2003]

 

Not sure what rules set you are refering to. I ran the enduro season last year in NASA NorCal & crewed for the two years before that. I mention the region because Jerry K., wrote/writes the enduro rule book.While fueling, you can do driver changes & clean glass. No mechanical work to be done while the gas cap is off. For events longer than 3 hours, you must put in a minimum of 5 gallons. There is no fueling allowed in the paddock. 10 min or 10 lap penalty ,depending on system being used, IIRC.

 

We got our fuel stops at the last 12 Hour down to <60 seconds. That was using 10 gallon dump cans modified to dump into a standard unleaded fuel filler (Spec Miatas, no fuel cell).

When we used 5 gallon cans, our stops were usually barely longer than the 90 second minimum the SCCA requires.

 

Typical SCCA rules for enduros:

Fuelers in Nomex (counted against 5 man crew)
Fire man in Nomex (not counted against 5 man crew)
Driver out of car
No mech work on corner where filler is located
90 second minimum stop time
Catch pan on ground for spillage
Any on-ground spills result in penalty

As I noted above, we could fuel in less than 60 seconds using a 10 gallon dump can with no dry break. We could do fuel, 2 tires, driver change, etc within the 90 seconds.

 

Guys guys guys.....remember that this was just a "fun race" which was hard to believe with all the rubbing going into Turn 1 on the first lap...but I along with Track Rat just want to point out that when someone stands up at a mandatory drivers meeting and makes a point that everyone associated with fueling will be in nomex and the driver will be out of the car... that must be policed and when someone does not follow the rules they must be held responsible.

That being said I had a great time breaking in a new car. This was a good warm up to a lot of racing in 2003.

Scott Fredricksen

 

which Miata were you in?

 

Car #96.....

 

It was policed and those that broke the rules WERE black flagged, spoken to (extended counseling), and allowed to resume.

 

Fueling at a pump is not a risk as long as the car is off. Speeding through the paddock is a risk. If the person that went for fuel was speeding through the paddock then yes, that is a problem - from what we heard he wasn't traveling at an excessive rate of speed, you were.

Chill out and have fun, that's what we're all there for.

 

Ok I guess I was mistaken.. with those rules however I know of at least three cars that could not have run the enduro. In fact I watch one of the Spec Miata's that were participating, pull into the paddock, stop the car turn it off. The 1 driver get out take his helmut off and help his other co-driver re-fuel the car. Then they the oterh drive got in and off they went.

Track Rat I am not pointing figures ( i did not know that was you on the ATV was just suing it as an example) or anything in fact I am not ever a person who has any say in the rules of the enduro... I just get to run my mouth all day. I believe the rules were if you filled on the hot pit you need to have a the driver out of the car , nomex for for the fuel and the Fireman and son on. Maybe for the enduro next year that is a rule that could be looked at.

 

I'm not sure if these rules are spelled out in the GCR - they have always been provided in the Supps for the event (in which case, they could vary by venue and region).

It still baffles me that people would run an enduro with no crew. We enter two or three cars each year at the 12 Hours at Summit Point and always have 6-10 drivers (3-4 per car) and around 10 crew members (5 for the pit, 1 fireman, 1 crew chief, 1 chef/misc, 2 fuelers).

 

Probably due to the Length of the enduro... however afte rbeing beat by a 25 min session on track I can't image doing 3 hours by myself.

 

I really hope NASA visits the issue for next year. It appears to be about a 30 sec advantage to fuel at the pumps vs fueling in the pits with jugs and funnel. Does NASA want 1/2 the field jockeying for one 93 unleaded pump in the pits next year?

Quote:
"Fueling at a pump is not a risk as long as the car is off."

Seen those convenience store videos of the flaming soccer mom?... and I'll bet her rear brake rotors weren't at 300 deg!




[Modified by Track rat, 1:10 PM 2/25/2003]