I want the details.

Still nothing on the H-C National site.

This debate isn't going away for me and MANY others.

Yesterday I ordered a set of full tread Toyo RA1 rains 205/50/15's and they are NOT cheap!!! 165.00 per. Hoosiers dirt stockers are similar.

Ordered from Bob Vilven who supplies the Speed WC teams...

Note: I ordered the Toyo rains due to my opinion: "that they are the best rain for what I am looking for".... not the new National rule.

I'm going to spend 15-20K to race with NASA in 2003 and want to know where, why, when, and how this is good for me.


John- Who is STILL looking for answers.

PS- this isn't about what tires are best...... I want the details on WHY Toyos!!!!!!!

Ryan, Chris????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????


[Modified by JohnW, 12:21 AM 2/14/2003]

 

i dont have a problem with toyos. its cheaper than hoosiers and better than kumhos. so if youre going to have a spec tire, toyo is pretty much it.


[Modified by Tyson, 4:21 PM 2/13/2003]

 

Tyson.... NOT the point!!!!!!!!!

Why, Why, Why, Why, Why.........?????????????????????

 

ppl LIKE toyos! lots of ppl already use them.

 

I have some $50 coupons (toyo)

 

It isn't good for you. It is good for the guy spending 5k per year.

 

Okay cool!!!! I want in on this deal!


".......ppl like my spoilers, lots of ppl use them.........."

Lets make EVERYONE use my spoiler or DON'T come race in our series!!!!

Not a good idea.

 

Tyson, not everyone runs them and not everyone runs them in 20 minute sprint races - the length of races last year certainly don't necissitate the use of Toyos and Hoosier PAYS MONEY for race wins in ohter series which comprised a large percentage of the fields last year. We gotta cover up our Hoosier stickers too? I agree with John, this makes no sense as a MANDATE - run 'em if you want 'em but the "spec" tire for a non spec series makes NO sense (probably makes cents however).

 

BTW........ Maybe I am using TOYO's.

I have the rains already in the shop.

Still not a good idea.

 

Since this is the forum where the National Class was announced, seems a little strange that we aren't permitted to discuss rules pertaining to that nationalization of the series.

 

Sorry......... RJ.


You-da-man

 

discussion is fine and encouraged!!!

I just dont want this type of thing to turn into another vinyl debate. You guys should be turning wrenches and doing 12-oz curls at a rapid rate right now anyways (right before VIR i mean).

 

Damn......... Phat is ON the ball!!!!!!!!!!


What he said!

 

In case anyone else is looking for Toyos, 1010tires.com has some decent prices

http://www.1010tires.com/tire.asp?ti...=Proxes+RA%2D1

 

I think you are right, it should not degrade to an attack on organizations that allow the series to run and grow. My fear, and I think I am not alone (certain a minority but not alone), is that if Toyo is considered the most "fabu" tire on the west coast and that is playing a role in the decision process it should be noted that at least here, although a lot of folks run Toyo, it is a) not considered the fastest tire new b) it does not offer contingency c) it is not the "exclusive" tire for a ton of SCCA racers. This being the case, there were 20+ car fields at all NASA weekends last year for HC and HC had its own rungroup as a result - a large percentage of those making those fields were from the SCCA many of whom ran/run Hoosiers. You discourage or remove even half of those guys from the fields, what happens here? HC runs with Small Bore? That is not something I would be enthusiatic about at the end of the day - especially since those guys in SB could run Hoosiers/Kumhos/Michelins/etc ... and why would you run "with" HC if you were holding on to 6 or 8 used but not gone Hoosiers?

 

thats a valid point and my only concerns (even though i'm not racing yet). There isnt contingency for running the tire, and the very reason the rules were written to accept SSC/SSB, Limited Production, IT, GAC, etc cars was to widen the participation base. By limiting your tire choice to just toyo it almost undermines that effort. Now of course you could leave the tire rule open yet only those on Toyos would be able to accumulate points in the series towards the championship and/or would not be eligable for other contingencies.

 

i dont see to much a problem about this guys. a lot of ppl DO run hoosiers as well in west, and they are recognized as the fastest tire no doubt. i agree that it causes problems with those who are already sponsored or in contingency with another race. heck, i dont even know why i am defending it, i really dont think i am actually. im just stating the bovious reasons that those in charge have made the decision they have the right to make as organizers of the club. i think we need to realize HC has now gone past a "grassroots, enthusiast minded" series now that NASA is on board and taken over.

 

btw, youre preaching to the pastor about things not making sense about the new HC. you can ask karl this if you want. but the fact is NASA is now in charge and will do whatever they think is beneficial to them. it may not make sense from our side of the fence, and they may not be right, but thats just how it is...

 

ding ding ding...

 

Where I am coming from was evidenced at the SCCA double school last weekend. There, I saw 15 ITA cars (at least 10 were Hondas legal for HC) as well as a half dozen H5 cars as well and 1 H3 car. That is almost enough cars to fill the grid of an HC race to get a run group. These guys probably wouldn't all trek up to Summit Point if they are in GA or SC - they might show up for CMP and LMS however - these are the guys that guaranteed a run group last year, I don't think that should be ignored. A lot of guys here made sacrifices to make these run groups happen driving from PA to SC and GA to WV - they would not have done this to run in Small Bore, they did it to run in HC races. That's where I am coming from.

To suggest that it has grown past its grassroots start suggests that it has grown. If you get 15 cars at a race on the West Coast and 15 cars on the grid on the East Coast, has it really grown at all from the 25ish car grids of its first year? If it is too small to run by itself, is that growth? You tell me, I don't know. Maybe its the long term good that I just don't see right now. I know for myself that running in Small Bore with other HC cars would not be the same "for me" vs. running in an HC race w/ a standing start and a field of same marque cars. I also think it would be different for Hondacura enthusiasts that one would like to think is a potential for sponsorship.

That's just the way I see it and honestly I am neither attacking anyone or saying that I am empiracly correct - I am asking for people to think about what this change represents and what it does for growth over the long haul.

 

no, if i ever said or used the term "grown", youre misinterpreting me. i understand your view. i understand the flip side. too bad neither you nor I can make any other decision than "will I race with HC".

 

We just switched back to Toyo 235x40x17 RA1's after using the 225x45x17 Hoosiers for the last two USTCC Seasons. The Shaved Toyos are more forgiving than the Hoosiers, They are slightly Cheaper and they last about three times as long. Are they faster? I set my best time ever at Willow Springs last Weekend chasing Shawn. 1.32.9. We'll get down to 1.30.0 next time!!
If you are a serious racer you need to shave the RA1's to 1/16" otherwise they will 'Chunk' ( Willow Springs is particularly hard on tires) But if you heat cycle them properly they will last a lot longer than the Hoosiers.
Good Luck.
Kiwi

 

KIWI, Thanks for the tip!

Phat's posts above state what my concerns are better than I could.

I'm not pro or anti-Toyo. I just need somemore info.

What is Toyo doing for the series?
What are the Toyo contingencies?


I know for a fact that OPM gave big cash out of pocket for their ECHC role. And I know how much my company is spending in contingencies, sponsorships and Hard-Charger Awards...... and NO ONE makes 'ppl' use OPM or RRG stuff.

Maybe............. if Toyo is rewarding drivers that place 'top 3' with freebies, discounts and such, maybe this would be enough for those racers, who own other tires to buy a set of Toyos and cross over.

THROW me a bone over here!!!!!!!!!!!!

John- Who again wants to see the entire H-C grow, but is hopefully starting a debate to keep it from self-distructing by limiting participation.


[Modified by JohnW, 2:30 AM 2/14/2003]

 

good point, plus ive been really interested in joining this series for 2004, and ive got 2 sets of 16 inch SSR lightweight racing rims, and toyo does not offer a good 16 inch, a 40 or 45 series that is, are they thinking of a long term thing here with toyo??

 

KIWI, the point I am attempting to make has nothing to do with inherrent tires' worth or any tire's performance level (what happens when Hoosier modifies their compound - this argument of "worth" becomes worthless). I RUN Toyos, have two sets in the garage but I run Hoosiers too (and have some of them in the garage too). The gist is that this (by looking at the number of cars that ran last season here) could be (not guaranteed but "could") detrimental to driver turnout as so many IT guys run and are rewarded (contingency) by Hoosier for running their tires. To John's point, there is not a contingency (that I have heard of) for these guys to justify buying tires to run in this series if its not the only series they run. It doesn't matter how good the Toyo is or how cost effective anyone feels they are - if the guy feels Hoosier does him right and likes the tire (and that's easy to justify) then why would he buy some other tire to run HC races. Besides, if turnout dictates that HC doesn't have its own rungroup and IF they were to run with Small Bore, these guys could just run in Small Bore - now that doesn't seem good for business from my perspective.

On the 1/16th shaved depth. Is that not competetive advantage to have drivers running tires on different tread depths? Yes its the same tire but is full tread the spec or is 4/32nds the spec or is 3/32nds the spec or just pick what you want? Sure seems as if that would become a contentious issue and if you have guys showing up at the track w/ 1/32nds tread depth tires for qualifying and 2/32nds for their races, that whole issue of guys buying new Hoosiers for every race seems rather insignificant at that point.