will my ride be ok with stick shocks if i put eibach sportslines on my car or will i nedd to upgrade to something like: kyb, tokico, or even koni yelows??

 

Your stock shocks when new were made to do ther bare minimum of damping for the stock springs. Honda (and any other manufacturer) cut as many corners as possible to save a few buch on shcoks. Once you have some wear and then ask them to work with stiffer performance springs, you will see them die almost immediately. If you can only afford springs now and shocks later and don't mind doing the labor twice, you can do them in steps but your stock shocss won't last long. It is almost a guarantee unless you just decide to put up with how bad they are to save the money.

When new, they weren't much to write home about. Their real functional life with stock springs was pretty well gone by about 30,000 miles. Adding springs later just puts the final nail in the coffin. Teh improvement of the whole car will take a jump with springs alone but the full capability won't be there until you have springs and shocks.

 

I just put some coilovers on and now I need to get some shocks too. I don't mind doing the labor twice because it's really easy. And I didn't have enough money to get some nice Tokicos or anything yet but they will come. So I'm rolling around slammed with stock shocks and bad camber!!

 

Too funny. I'm still running my stock shocks at 260,000 miles. They show no signs of leakage or a noticeable reduction in damping capability. Granted, they probably aren't as good as new, but they aren't bad either. The main reason stock shocks fail after you drop a car is you are asking them to work faster in virgin teritory. The shock piston is traveling in an area it didn't see much of at the stock height, and seal failure follows shortly. As for Honda cutting corners and cheaping out on the shocks, I guess you are entitled to your opinion. But, if you ask anyone who has real knowledge of Honda suspension components, almost all will tell you the shocks are capable of lasting the life of the car, unless of course they blow a seal.

 

I'm afraid you are off the mark on this one. Pardon a little pride but you'll not find too many people with much more Honda shock experience than I. The factory shocks are designed to last through the original 33,000 mile warranty then they don't care. The factory shocks are made by Showa, which is a Japanese commodity shock similar to Gabriel here. Very low tech. I would be surprised if Honda paid even $5 each for them in huge volume and this is true with almost any car manufacturer's OE shock. Not an opinion, I guarantee it. If you can shave only $1 off each shock and make 100K cars per year, you just saved $400K. The last new Honda I had was a '98 Civic EX and they were noticably worn at 10K miles if you know what you are looking for. Cheap commodity shocks tend to have high amounts of internal friction and very low valving technology. That is why any new car that you buy, even if it is an econo-box , tends to feel pretty good as the suspension bushings and shocks have lots of motion damping from new part friction. After about 10K miles, the internal parts have worn in with each other to the point that the real capability of the valving shows it's face. Certainly they have seen their true usefulness by 30-50K although you may not realize how bad it is beyond that (even to 260K) if you aren't paying too much attention. They wear over time and not suddenly so you likely won't say "my shocks are bad today".

The stock (and most other) shocks are not position sensative (meaning they don't care where in their stroke they operate). Being in a new area when lowered vs. where they have worn in at stock heightn is not why they fail. If anything that should actually help them a bit because the inner cylinder area where they will now be operating is not as worn so they will have less blow-by. They fail because their low grade valving can't take hare of the higher spring rate and the tired seals fail when asked to try to seal higher forces.

If you find someone who will tell you that stock shocks will give good service for the long lifetime of the car, they either have very low standards or they don't really know what they are talking about.

 

thx, nice info.

can you say OWNED?

 

It's simple....stock shocks/stock springs. Performance springs need performance shocks.

 

I'm sure you meant 36,000 mile warranty... But anyways, thanks for your follow up post. You obviously seem to have a lot of experience in the suspension field. I'm always open to corrections and additional information. My comments were based on my experience. Like I stated in my previous post, (Granted, they probably aren't as good as new, but they aren't bad either.), my stock shocks still fullfill their basic function for the type of driving I do. Maybe I do have very low standards, or the shocks just aren't that bad. New shocks would most likely be quite an improvement over what I'm running now, but handling and safety are not presently being compromised to any great degree to justify the upgrade. In fact, I'm sure my handling is much more predictable and stable than some of those slammed cars constantly bouncing off the bump stops.

Regarding usefull service life of the shocks, 260,000 miles is obviously pushing it. However, a 10,000 mile service life is rather drastic. You stated " they were noticably worn at 10K miles if you know what you are looking for". Just for my information, what criteria or measurements did you employ to determine this? Like I stated earlier, I'm always open to learning and new information. Thanks again.

 

Yes, I must have stuttered on the 33k and didn't catch it. Certainly a stock shock will last longer and do a better job on a stock spring than it will on an aftermarket performance spring which is what the original post asked.

Signs of the shock not doing it's appropriate job include noticing that it is not as crisp and tidy in handling roll control in a side to side situation like a quick lane change. The car should have no feeling like the body actually shifted too far and had to correct back. It should make it's move and be done, nice and tidy and not extra motion. The front and rear of the car should be in phase so a quick side to side motion (lane change) or up and down motion (going over a sharp rise where the car lets light then resettles quickly) does not feel like one end of the car has additional motion or feel disconnected from the other. When you hit a bump or undulation, the car should go through one complete up and down oscillation wave and not more. Worn shocks will typically allow more than that, especially when the suspension is asked to move a good amount. On my Civic at 10K, I really started noticing that I could not hold a single line through a smooth banked sweeper exit ramp at speed because the body was steadily transitioning around and I was having to correct the wheel. If I didn't adjust the wheel, the suspension would overtravel and litterally fall down the banking in the curve. The old test of jumping on the bumper of the car while sitting still is not very good except to show something that is ridiculously blown as the car's shocks and suspension move much faster in real driving than a person can physically exert on the car.

In the last several months I've done shock ride development on the Audi S4, BMW Z4 and M3, and both Mini Coopers using stock springs. If possible, we try to get a test car with at least 5-6K miles just so the initial friction will be lessened so a truer feeling for the stock shock is seen. Oddly on both BMWs and the Cooper S's biggest problems were severe overdamping that really gave the cars an unpleasant ride in the name of "sportiness". They were great for a short aggressive blast in the country but I wouldn't care to live with one day to day on less than perfect roads and certainly not ride a long distance on average roads. We were able to isolate some of the unpleasantness and give it a nice ride (not floaty but crisp and non -punishing like a BMW should have) while improving the handling balance plus give adjustability for tuning. Although I have great respect for BMWs, their OE shocks were rather pushed to the limit of a generally non-high performance technology OE shock so they did the best they could but were hamstrung with an inexpensive shock made too firm. The latest Car & Driver tests the M3 and several writers complained about the ride and overdamping. The OE ITR shock suffered a bit from this same situation too but weren't near so bad as these. The normal Honda shocks are just cheap and minimalist to satisfy the accountant more than the engineer.

Sorry for the long post but maybe someone will be interested and it might help better evaluate your car. Try driving a known area with a variety of road situations very smoothly and focus specifically on what the body motions and handling responses of the car are rather than your usually driving distractions. It may not be obvious at first because it takes some practice to learn a different sensativity but after some time of doing it a lot, you can really tune yourself into what the car is and isn't doing. Being able to discern and feel makes you a better driver and helps improve your car.

 

Oh, grow up. I was under the impression these forums were to exchange ideas, information, and opinions, and maybe even learn something once in a while. Your question referred to the stock shock's capability to handle your new springs. CRX Lee and I both basically stated they would not. I attributed possible failure due to higher damping loads (working faster) in vigin territiory where dirt and corrosion build up, whereas CRX Lee attributed the failure to only the higher damping loads, and gave a low opinion of the quality of the OEM shocks. After that, the discussion gets a little off topic as far as your original question is concerned. He is of the opinion OEM stock shocks have a very short service life, and I believe it is considerably longer. The service life is somewhat open to interpretation, based on what the sevice manuals state and what one would consider acceptable for their application. I enjoy learning new things and try to keep an open mind. After all, if we all knew everything, there wouldn't be much need for forums like this.

 

Agreed. I post threads when I need help and responses if I might be able to give some. That's what I like about H-T, the beneficial give and take is better than I've found elsewhere.

 

Don't be sorry for the long post. Anything worth being said is worth being said well. I appreciate the time you spent in replying to my question. Thanks for the information. Given the age and mileage of my Civic, I'm sure the handling isn't anywhere near what it was when new. Driving it every day for over 13 years would make gradual degradation in handling almost imperceptable. Coupled with the fact that both rear trailing arm bushings are cracked, I'm sure the stock shocks are the least of my problems. They pass the old bounce test well and the car doesn't even jiggle when performing the test. It's my daily driver to commute to work, and it serves that purpose well. If I ever get the urge to chase cones, well then I've obviously got a lot of work to do. Again, thanks for your replies.

BTW, what in your opinion would be a good all around replacement shock on a '90 Civic Si that is at the stock ride height and used for daily driving? Keep in mind I do on occasion enjoy taking those back road twisties and long sweeping off ramps at speeds higher than grandpa would think of attempting.


[Modified by Perfectionist, 10:36 PM 2/9/2003]

 

If regular comodity replacement is your goal and not really much in the way of performance improvement, then I'd put the KYB (non-AGX) offering step higher than the Monroe and Gabriel offerings.

If you are looking a step above the commodity level toward something better, I'd put the blue Tokico HPs about a step higher than the KYB. Making a shameless plug, the KONI red will get you the lowest priced adjustable performance shock at about $80 each from any number of dealers. All will have stock spring seat locations so your height will be the same on stock springs.

 

thanks i guess for the info.... u 2 sound like a married couple though. the talking you two are doing is for IM..... thanks anyways though.

 

I disagree. Everything said here was useful to me and is the type of thing I would like to always hear. good info here.

 

wtf, consider yourself lucky from getting such responses.

 

CRXSi_AutoX,
I guess in a way I did kind of highjack your post, but the discussion wasn't too far off topic.

CRX Lee,
Thanks for your advice and recommendations.

 

great discussion guys i'm going with some aftermarket shocks now.